And you thought the Catholics had all the trouble

[Racket_Man]

A Mullah in Afghanistan has been sentenced to 20 years in prison for beating and RAPING a 10 YEAR OLD GIRL

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/huff-w...world&ir=world

The Mullah, in typical fashion, tried to "claim" the sex act was "consentual". This was NOT consistent with her sever injuries.

AND she had to be removed from the hospital and spirited away to a secrete location because her family was openly planning an "honor killing".

[Gravekeeper]

Not 100% sure what this has to do with religion or why you needed to frame it as a "See? Muslims are bad too!" topic. The "trouble" with Catholics as you put it was that the crimes were actively covered up by the Church and the criminals quietly shuffled around. In this story, his colleagues immediately caught the guy and he was arrested, charged, jailed and his case even transferred to a fairer jurisdiction. So I'm not sure what your point is.

The problem here is not indicative of Islam, it's indicative of Afghanistan.

[cindybubbles]

Where in the article does it say that the family was openly planning an honor killing?

Here is what I found instead:

The sentence, passed by a Kabul judge on Saturday, has been welcomed by family as well as women's support groups as a rare victory in their fight for justice for female victims of sex crimes.

Yes, that's right. The sentence was welcomed by her FAMILY. If it was an honor killing that they planned, would they not instead be on the side of the mullah?

[Kuari]

As soon as the sentence was passed, the girl's father walked out of the court room and would not speak to the girl. There is at least one news story that covered that action, but I'm at work and can't pull it up. The same story stated that the family HAD been planning an honour killing, and that the girl was removed from her family to a place of safety by a volunteer group due to that. I read another story where it said that her family appeared to support her, but the father's actions in walking away and ignoring his daughter makes it pretty clear how he actually feels.

I'm almost willing to bet that we'll be reading about this poor girl's death soon enough.

EDIT:

Here's at least one news story that backs up the honor killing plotted by her family:
here

[Gravekeeper]

The honour killing part is true according to Amnesty International. Though it is sharply divided.

The NYT has a more detailed story.

Its the male relatives that want to kill her under pressure from her community and wastes of oxygen like the Taliban. Its very much the more progressive parts of Afghanistan vs the remote village parts where the Taliban and this sort of related shit are common place.

[cindybubbles]

Wow, you all are right, after all.

I will never understand honor killings, though. Why would anyone want to kill a little girl, anyway? Other religions and cultures simply shun them, but honor killings take the cake!

[Gravekeeper]

I will never understand honor killings, though. Why would anyone want to kill a little girl, anyway? Other religions and cultures simply shun them, but honor killings take the cake!

Its not a religious thing. Its a cultural thing. Specifically, cultures where the family's status or honour are held in high importance combined with women's rights that are a few hundred years behind. Basically, men are considered the creators and owners of the family's reputation and honour. While women, being seen as property, can serve only to uphold or ruin the family's honour. They can never add to or otherwise increase the family's honour or reputation. If a women "misbehaves' or otherwise is not doing exactly what she is told and what is expected of her, she brings shame and dishonour on the family. And killing her is seen as the best way of restoring that honour in the eyes of the community.

Its incredibly fucked up.

In the case of a rape victim its a factor of virginity. A female who is not a virgin before marriage is tarnished and brings shame and dishonour to her family. The circumstances of how she lost it are irrelevant. A girl and her virginity are basically seen as the property of and responsibility of her father until such a time as he can pass her off to another man. At which point her and her sexuality are now the property of her new undoubtedly arranged/forced husband. Which is why sometimes the dishonour can be avoided ( ugh ) by making the victim marry her rapist.

[cindybubbles]

I wonder if instead of marriage, the rapist could be made into her servant? After all, he took power away from the girl, so, should the girl not be able to take power back from him?

But then we go into the slavery issue, too.

I think the rapist should be castrated in such a way that he doesn't offend again.

[s_stabeler]

problem with that (in the minds of these people) is that it doesn't deal with the dishonour. To them, it's not the power difference, it's the insult to their honour.

basically, the issue is when family honour means more to people than the actual members of the family. It doesn't help that many of the cultures originate in areas that are either desert, or not far from. In those cultures, being shunned by the community is a much greater problem- for example, if a member of the family had fallen ill, and you needed someone to help on the farm while they recovered, if nobody in the community is willing to help you... ( yes, it's not the same nowadays, but cultural change is a slow process, especially when habits have been ingrained for centuries. Look at the West- the issue of needing neighbourly aid during sickness more or less went away post-industrialisation, but women only started being employed in most industries after the 1st and 2nd world wars.)

I'm not saying it's acceptable, but remember that in many ways, the cultures that have these issues are socially in the middle ages- it's probably more useful to try to make them see how a woman can do more than marry than to dismiss them as fucked up.

[Gravekeeper]

I'm not saying it's acceptable, but remember that in many ways, the cultures that have these issues are socially in the middle ages- it's probably more useful to try to make them see how a woman can do more than marry than to dismiss them as fucked up.

Well, the key issue with Afghanistan is remoteness. The major cities are large and more modern, but there are hundreds of tiny little outlaying villages that are hours away from any sort of population center. They're completely shut off from the outside world and any sort of progressive influences. Even just in the area this girl is from there are tons of tiny little villages dotting the river. I can't imagine most of them even have 100 people living in them. As most of the are like 1 city block in size.

[Panacea]

I wonder if instead of marriage, the rapist could be made into her servant? After all, he took power away from the girl, so, should the girl not be able to take power back from him?

It runs counter to the society. Women are seen as subhuman by the tribal cultures.

I'm with GK: the title for this thread was poorly chosen.

[Rageaholic]

I'm with GK: the title for this thread was poorly chosen.

When I saw the title, I assumed this would be on the protestants.

[cindybubbles]

It runs counter to the society. Women are seen as subhuman by the tribal cultures.

Yes, and the problem escalates when they pack up their attitudes and come live here, where women are treated much better. Not always equally, mind you, but much better.

That's why I'd rather have our Western presence stay there a little while longer, maybe 50 years or so? Whether in the form of our troops or something just as strong, I'd rather we be there for at least 50 years or so. At least until we can be sure that the safety of the women and girls there will be 100% guaranteed.

[Panacea]

Yes, and the problem escalates when they pack up their attitudes and come live here, where women are treated much better. Not always equally, mind you, but much better.

That's why I'd rather have our Western presence stay there a little while longer, maybe 50 years or so? Whether in the form of our troops or something just as strong, I'd rather we be there for at least 50 years or so. At least until we can be sure that the safety of the women and girls there will be 100% guaranteed.

We can't fix their problems for them.

Societies that embrace freedom and opportunity will succeed and thrive. Those that don't, won't.

Japan used to have similar attitudes towards women (though never that extreme). Women in their society today have more freedom and more opportunity, and their society thrives. Ditto South Korea.

India is struggling with this. Increased education and opportunity has women there demanding new laws banning violence against women (especially rape) and are winning the fight. They are forcing the police to take rape seriously, and quit blaming the victim. They are in a painful transition period, but the result will be women in rural regions will have opportunities and more freedom; they will be able to take charge of their own lives.

Afghanistan is working on that as well, but until locals tell the Taliban to fuck off, it's going to be dicey. We can't fix that for them. They have to decide what they want. If they want the Taliban, then Afghanistan will never be able to take advantage of their actually quite substantial resources and pull themselves out of the Stone Age.

Syria and Iraq are actually moving backwards. If ISIS wins, then expect those countries to be impoverished shit holes within a few years, a situation that will last decades.

It's going to take another hundred years for third world nations to make the gains in women's rights that the developed world has made. We went through a lot of pain in that process, and are still struggling with the hold outs.

[cindybubbles]

We can't fix their problems for them.

We can't fix them, but we can help their society evolve and progress to a point where they can fix the problems themselves. Have them see that women and girls ARE people by treating them as such. Give the more liberal and moderate people a strong voice so that they can be heard.

Restrict weapons usage and punish those who abuse others' human rights. Extra punishment if they use their religion to justify it. This will be hard, since we've used our religions before to justify human atrocities and Americans are very fond of guns and the Second Amendment, but hey, we don't have to worry about living near terrorist groups. They do.

Here's to hoping that those societies that don't embrace freedom and opportunity will soon wake up and smell the fair-trade coffee. Otherwise, they'll shrivel up and die.