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  • My thoughts on the Creation v Evolution debate

    I do not care. I really do not. Our salvation is not based on how God created the dirt or water. Our salvation is based on our Love and Faith in God, and the forgiveness Jesus gave to us.

    I believe my God can do anything, I mean anything. I do not care if he used evolution over billions of years, or took 6 earth days. God is not restricted by our concept of time, we know from the Theory of Relativity that time is not a constant. Heck, I even think it is possible that God evolved the physical human body (like Pokemon), then when it was where God wanted it He created the Soul in His image (then split the Soul in two creating Adam and Eve, which is why sex is sacred because it is the two spirits melding into one; forming the image of God). This is also the last time I mention God here, none of my issues with evolution involve Him.

    Evolution is interesting, I have some problems though. For instance, scientist having one toe bone and reconstructing a full sized 'missing link', most of the time the bones are proven to be from a "modern" man (withing the last few thousand years). Also, who else looks at these bones? I really want to know the methodology for reconstructing an entire body out of a single toe or tooth. I could understand figuring out major details like a toe bone showing they walked upright, or a tooth showing herbivore/carnivore/omnivore. But I can not understand getting major details like shape of hands or height from ONE bone. I also find it interesting that several times marine life, that went "extinct" millions of years ago, are still being discovered by fishermen with really long fishing lines (Coelacanth). This is called Lazarus taxon

    Another problem I have is with Radiocarbon Dating (carbon dating for short). Wiki does a good job of this. To sum up my issue is that it assumes a constant (or near constant) amount of cosmic rays to interact with nitrogen to produce the C14. My main problem is the assumption, we know that the Sun goes through cycles of "active" and "inactive" periods. What if some of the Ice Ages, were the result of lower solar activity? (we know of a minor ice age in the middle ages) Carbon dating to maybe 6-10 thousand years, maybe because we can compare known plant specimens (rings from trees that are old). I have also seen carbon dating be abused as a "magic bullet" science. The Shroud of Turin is an example, multiple samples taken, multiple results given. I do not know (or care) if the Shroud is real, my point is that carbon dating can be thrown off by many, many things (in the Shrouds case, it was a fire in the 15-16th centuries).

    In conclusion, I have more points of debate, but I think I went on for long enough. I got to save some tasty debate for later. yummy. So side notes.

    On a more humorous side note, I saw an Atheist scholar blast an Internet commented for posting that the compiled writings of Josephus were not real because "carbon dating said so". The scholar blasted the commenter because we do not have any original copies to test (almost 2000 years ago, was when Josephus wrote). Most paper does not survive a few hundred years (then only under the most Ideal of conditions). Declaration of Independence is almost gone too, is that going to be a myth of history? (remember an Atheist said that) I wish I could remember where I read that.

    Anther side note, many scientist in the early 20th century were skeptical of the "Big Bang Theory". Many leading researchers, such as the eminent Cambridge astronomer Arthur Eddington, were also suspicious of the Big Bang idea, because it suggested a mystical moment of creation (source). That is right, until the mid-20th century Big Bang was "Creation Science Crazy Talk(tm)" which was first proposed by a Vatican scientist. I am not saying all Creation Science is right (that is another Really long post, please save that discussion for the next thread I will do later on that subject. I have a few issues with them too.).

    (PS: I plan on being back on tomorrow, but I do not know for certain. It is based on time restraints. I guess that is relative. )
    Noble Grand: Do you swear, on your sacred honor, to uphold the principles of Friendship, Love and Truth?
    Me: I do.
    (snippet of the Initiation ceremony of the Fraternal Order of Odd Fellows)

  • #2
    I don't really have time to go into this in detail, but I'd really suggest you wander over to a site called talkorigins.org - they have done all the work of examining scientific claims of creationism. There's a decent search function on there, so:

    http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/hovind/howgood-c14.html

    Have a look there at the carbon dating issues and see if that answers anything for you. I know that carbon dating is only regarded as reasonably accurate to a certain point, but that's not the only method of dating things. There's a whole slew of articles there (with citations I think) to explain how things work.

    Start exploring and have fun!

    As a side note, try http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Main_Page as well, and just because someone (or even scientific opinion) changes their mind after evidence is presented, this isn't necessarily a bad thing. Holding onto ideas that are shown to be invalid or inaccurate after proof is presented is a worrying trend.

    Rapscallion
    Proud to be a W.A.N.K.E.R. - Womanless And No Kids - Exciting Rubbing!
    Reclaiming words is fun!

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    • #3
      Thank you, Raps. I will look over them in the morning. That rationalwiki sound particularly interesting.
      Noble Grand: Do you swear, on your sacred honor, to uphold the principles of Friendship, Love and Truth?
      Me: I do.
      (snippet of the Initiation ceremony of the Fraternal Order of Odd Fellows)

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      • #4
        The foremost error that all creationists ( and climate deniers, etc etc ) make is assuming that they know more about the subject than the people who have spend their entire careers researching it. Any problem the random Joe off the street can raise about a scientific field of study those scientists have already considered and dealt with eons ago. That's literally their job.

        ( If I see one more Republican prefix a statement with "I'm not a scientist" then offer their opinion on science I will scream. )


        Originally posted by Gilhelmi
        God is not restricted by our concept of time, we know from the Theory of Relativity that time is not a constant.
        I'm not going to touch your God with a ten foot pole because that's a whole other debate. However, I think you might be misunderstanding the theory of relativity. Time is affected by other natural forces ( such as gravity. But time dilation is partially a function of observation. We say time dilation has occurred because two different observers are experiencing time at different speeds when they observe each other. But both observers still experience time as a constant individual rate. Its when they compare notes that the dilation appears.

        IE for every month I experience you experience a year. However, we both experience that time at the same constant relative to our own perception as observers. Its only when we get back together again that we notice holy shit, you were gone a year but it was only a month here.

        I will, however, give you different food for thought ( Because science is awesome ) and say that space time is in essence simultaneous due to space time dilation. In other words, everything that has happened and will ever happen has actually already happened so to speak and in fact is happening right now. But we are only capable of observing a single point.

        Also, for the hell of it, I will point out that you are not currently experiencing the present and that your brain is actually pretty shitty about perceiving time in general. Everything you perceive right now actually happened about 80 milliseconds ago because it takes your brain that long to process sensory inputs and give you what you consider the present. You can even trick the brain into perceiving time assbackwards. Which is kind of scary really.




        Originally posted by Gilhelmi
        Evolution is interesting, I have some problems though. For instance, scientist having one toe bone and reconstructing a full sized 'missing link', most of the time the bones are proven to be from a "modern" man (withing the last few thousand years). Also, who else looks at these bones?
        That's not exactly evolution so much as paleontology, but:

        To answer your first question: DNA extraction and genome sequencing. They aren't just saying hey, this is a weird looking bone it must be an entirely new sapiens species.

        To answer your second question: That's the entire point of peer reviewing in science. Having everyone else look at your results to test them.


        Originally posted by Gilhelmi
        I also find it interesting that several times marine life, that went "extinct" millions of years ago, are still being discovered by fishermen with really long fishing lines (Coelacanth).
        It is interesting but not at all surprising. The ocean is the last part of the planet that still holds a great deal of mysteries due to the size and depths involved. The Coelacanth for example if you check the article you are linking is A) Nocturnal and B) Lives in caves 100-500 meters below the surface. C) Was routinely caught by fisherman for decades but they just threw them back because they didn't know they were of any significance.

        As for the Lazarus taxon. If you read the article you link you'll see exactly what the problem is in terms of declaring something extinct ( Hint: Its based on human observation vs the fossil record ). If we haven't seen it in a while and don't find any fossils, we have to assume its extinct. If its really hiding off shore 500 metres down in a cave, well, its unlikely its going to be seen much to change our assumption.



        Originally posted by Gilhelmi
        Another problem I have is with Radiocarbon Dating (carbon dating for short). Wiki does a good job of this. To sum up my issue is that it assumes a constant (or near constant) amount of cosmic rays to interact with nitrogen to produce the C14. My main problem is the assumption, we know that the Sun goes through cycles of "active" and "inactive" periods. What if some of the Ice Ages, were the result of lower solar activity?
        Radiocarbon dating is only one of some odd 18 methods of dating. I am afraid you may be committing the foremost error. Inadvertently assuming you know more about the subject than the scientists that specialize in it. Solar activity is taken into account and in fact is key to certain dating methods ( For example, certain radionuclides that existed at the beginning of the solar system for actually extinct now but their remnant traces can still be detected when dating ). Also, for the record, the sun's cycle of solar activity is on a time span that is, geologically speaking, a fart in the wind.



        Originally posted by Gilhelmi
        The Shroud of Turin is an example, multiple samples taken, multiple results given. I do not know (or care) if the Shroud is real, my point is that carbon dating can be thrown off by many, many things (in the Shrouds case, it was a fire in the 15-16th centuries).
        The only reason the Shroud of Turin has multiple results is because it is claimed to be a religious artifact and its very rare that they let anyone near it to examine it. Most of the controversial stuff is based on early tests done in the 70s and 80s. More modern tests have shown a number of problems and inconsistencies with it as well as a number of details that were are forged or added later. Its also been successfully replicated using medieval art techniques ( as the Shroud dating points to the medieval era ).

        But again, due to its status as a religious artifact its rarely ever allowed to be examined let alone seen in the first place ( They only let the world see the thing for the first time in like 40 years last year for example ). Also, for the record, the Chruch does not officially assert the authenticity of the Shroud.

        So, yeah. >.>

        Even if the shroud was authentic to the proper time period the Romans crucified LOTS of people. Most of whom would have had beards. -.-

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        • #5
          Time, whether a real thing or only how we perceive things, is itself part of creation. God's eternal. To me, it makes no sense, other than a metaphorical one, to have God going around saying things like "hey, that ocean I made's nice, but it ought to have fish in it," and "oops, I made male and female of everything else but forgot a mate for the human; maybe he'll save me the trouble of fixing that and go for one of the other animals. No? Oh, all right..." It's more consistent with the idea of an eternal being, as opposed to one who just keeps on living, to say he created the whole thing all at once, so to speak, beginning to end from our point of view. And in that case, why *shouldn't* scientific accounts of how far from the beginning and how things have changed since then be accurate?
          "My in-laws are country people and at night you can hear their distinctive howl."

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Gravekeeper View Post
            The foremost error that all creationists ( and climate deniers, etc etc ) make is assuming that they know more about the subject than the people who have spend their entire careers researching it.
            This. So this.

            Originally posted by Gravekeeper View Post
            ( If I see one more Republican prefix a statement with "I'm not a scientist" then offer their opinion on science I will scream. )
            I will be right there in the background screaming with you.

            Originally posted by Gravekeeper View Post
            I'm not going to touch your God with a ten foot pole because that's a whole other debate.
            So this.

            Gilhemi, you can't really discuss God within the context of science because science only studies the natural world. God is of the supernatural world.

            Science tells us about the world we live in.

            Theology tells us (or strives to tell us, depending on your point of view) what it means to be human.


            Originally posted by Gravekeeper View Post
            Also, for the record, the Chruch does not officially assert the authenticity of the Shroud.
            Exactly. The Church calls the Shroud something to inspire faith. Nothing more. But it is valuable for that reason, whether it is genuine or not.

            Originally posted by Gravekeeper View Post
            Even if the shroud was authentic to the proper time period the Romans crucified LOTS of people. Most of whom would have had beards. -.-
            If they were devout Jews, most certainly.
            Good news! Your insurance company says they'll cover you. Unfortunately, they also say it will be with dirt.

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            • #7
              Those links you provided were fascinating Raps. With the inaccuracies in C14 actually making readings younger in most cases (example a 6500 years old sample, being read as 6000 years old). I think I will read a few more of those articles. Well written and researched by multiple people.

              I really liked that RationalWiki at first. Answers in Geneses was really well written and balanced; but then someone tried to compare the Creation museum to Disney land in terms of attendance (I doubt that the Smithsonian Institute gets the attendance of Disney) as an argument for their failing (because no museum in the world has ever struggled with attendance ). Along with a few other disparaging remarks that were not related to the content of the exhibits (like implying it is wrong to call them a museum). But, I am hoping that is an isolated incident, I am still wiki surfing so time will tell. So of their issues could also be still be found in many non-creationist museums (like the feathers being missing, or the 'classical' view of the Tyrannosaurus Rex {dragging the tail would have broken its back}, ect), because the new discoveries with the feathers is rather recent. But I am still reading and it is still interesting.

              On the topic of Radiocarbon dating. I am hoping to retrain some of you on debate. Raps went above and beyond in providing links (again, thank you, they were really interesting). Where another only posted that Radiocarbon dating was not the only method, but did not tell me what the other types were so I could do research on them. Providing names and terms is important so that I can look them up so I can agree and/or disagree with that point.
              Noble Grand: Do you swear, on your sacred honor, to uphold the principles of Friendship, Love and Truth?
              Me: I do.
              (snippet of the Initiation ceremony of the Fraternal Order of Odd Fellows)

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              • #8
                I've done quite a bit of reading and watching of Youtube channels here or there, Gilhemi, and am happy to point out other sources.

                If you want to look into other dating methods, a quick google search for wiki dating methods turned up the following: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiome...dating_methods

                There are many other results, but Wikipedia is a good starting point to make investigations.

                Rationalwiki has its good points, but yes occasionally people do go off on a tangent. However, are the core points correct? I assume you're after the truth, so are you interested in what's polite or what's accurate?

                Answers in Genesis is run by Ken Ham, a man who devoutly believes in and evangelises about creationism. His research methods have been found to be faulty before, earning him the nickname 'bananaman'. He had a famous clip claiming that the banana was made for us because it's got a form that fits in the hand, lets us know when it's ready to be eaten, easy to open, etc. He did back away from that, to his credit, when it was pointed out that the banana has been heavily modified by human farming over the years. However, his initial research methods lacked a certain something.

                Sure, scientists make mistakes, and that's why scientific opinion changes when the evidence points to a different conclusion. That's why radiocarbon dating is known to be a touch quirky, thanks to corroboration by such as dendrochronology, for example. Thanks to our tree record, we have trees in existence that are older than the 6000 year history believed by some fundamentalist Christian groups. http://mentalfloss.com/article/29879...st-trees-world for a starter, and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_oldest_trees for some more stuff. Clonal tree colonies are pretty fascinating in their own way. It's not hard to get that - whilst others didn't provide it, I have to wonder why you didn't spend the few seconds to hit Google that I did?

                The problem I have with talking about this is that I get the feeling you're after confirmation of a certain answer or outlook. I may be wrong about this, but that's what I'm getting from this. That you want to find something to believe in, or that you want confirmation of the god you believe in. Is that anywhere near accurate?

                Rapscallion
                Proud to be a W.A.N.K.E.R. - Womanless And No Kids - Exciting Rubbing!
                Reclaiming words is fun!

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Gilhelmi View Post
                  On the topic of Radiocarbon dating. I am hoping to retrain some of you on debate. Raps went above and beyond in providing links (again, thank you, they were really interesting). Where another only posted that Radiocarbon dating was not the only method, but did not tell me what the other types were so I could do research on them. Providing names and terms is important so that I can look them up so I can agree and/or disagree with that point.
                  *cough* Ahem. Gilhemi, the first rule of debate is: you make a claim, you support it with evidence. You opened the salvo by claiming C14 dating was no good, but didn't provide any evidence to support that claim. Now you're criticizing GK for his excellent description of how C14 actually works, and you're getting on him for not providing you with any links?

                  It is not GK's job to do your research for you. It is up to YOU to prove c14 doesn't work, and since you're not in the sciences yourself there is no way you will credibly ever be able to do that. The best you can do is repeat the work of others, and that "work" as Raps correctly points out is done by people with an agenda . . . to prove Young Earth Creationism. That's not a winning strategy for you.

                  You're conflating science with theology. If you try to prove or disprove science on that basis you will fail every time. Science is reproducible. Theology is not. Bottom line. If you can't run an experiment and get the same result every time, it is not science.

                  If you've read some of my other posts on religion, you will know that I'm actually a pretty devout person. But I understand there is a difference between science and faith, and I don't need science to confirm that faith.

                  Science teaches us about the natural world we live in. Theology teaches us what it means to be a good human being. I don't need Genesis to be literally true for it to have meaning, value, and truth on that basis.

                  Originally posted by Rapscallion View Post
                  Sure, scientists make mistakes, and that's why scientific opinion changes when the evidence points to a different conclusion.
                  Scientists certainly do sometimes make mistakes, but what you're really talking about here is actually how the scientific process is supposed to work. Scientists build a consensus from the published, peer reviewed literature. As that literature increases, the consensus changes in response to new data and new information. That's why science sometimes seems to "change." As we learn more about how things work, we find that previous suppositions were flawed, and we adjust accordingly. This is the beauty of the process; it is flexible and absorbs new information rather than trying to make the conclusion fit the facts.


                  Originally posted by Rapscallion View Post
                  It's not hard to get that - whilst others didn't provide it, I have to wonder why you didn't spend the few seconds to hit Google that I did?

                  The problem I have with talking about this is that I get the feeling you're after confirmation of a certain answer or outlook. I may be wrong about this, but that's what I'm getting from this. That you want to find something to believe in, or that you want confirmation of the god you believe in. Is that anywhere near accurate?
                  Gilhemi is falling for the logical fallacy a lot of people fall for. It's the "I don't want to expose my false position by providing evidence, so I will force my opponent to supply evidence that I am wrong instead," making the person on the other side of the debate do all the heavy lifting.

                  The problem is, it doesn't convince people who've already made up their minds, so it's wasted energy. The debate then becomes centered on side issues while the original issue raised by the original fallacious argument is ignored.

                  I'll give you an example I read just last night. An anti-vaxxer is trying to get a science blogger named Orac to admit that the "CDC Whistleblower" apologized to Andrew Wakefield, a discredited researcher whose medical license in Britain was yanked for falsifying research. Wakefield, ironically, is accusing the CDC of hiding and manipulating data.

                  The anti vaxxer provided a series of text messages that "proved" her claim. Orac dismissed the claim as unlikely to be true (while admitting he could be wrong) because the anti vaxxer didn't provide any proof to verify her claim of who the texts came from. The AV then said all Orac had to do was call the "whistleblower" to verify the texts.

                  There are two problems with this: one, Orac is not on good terms with that the "whistleblower" probably won't talk to Orac as a result, and two, it is not Orac's job to prove the texts are false. It is AV's job to prove they're true. She can't or won't do that by providing IP information or a letter from the parties verifying the exchange or anything else. She just insists people take what she says at face value, while ignoring the fact these kinds of texts are easy to fake.

                  Ken Hamm has learned the hard way he can't rely on the Bible to convince other people of his claims. That's why he 1) attacks the science in an effort to discredit it, and 2) relies on manufactured "science" (research that purports to actually experiment and answer a question but doesn't) to give his claims a veneer of credibility.

                  If Gilhemi is going to argue on that basis, he's going to wind up frustrated. But I do agree with your observation; he seems to be looking for facts that fit his preconceptions and ignoring everything else.
                  Last edited by Panacea; 11-10-2014, 06:32 PM. Reason: Fixed grammatical errors. Dammit I think faster than I can type!
                  Good news! Your insurance company says they'll cover you. Unfortunately, they also say it will be with dirt.

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                  • #10
                    Thank you, Panacea. Saved me a lot of typing.

                    Gilhelmi, 5 seconds on Google would have lead you to a starting point.


                    Originally posted by Gilhelmi
                    (like implying it is wrong to call them a museum).
                    It does, frankly, disparage the term. Creationism was basically invented in the 60s by a nutjob from Texas. A guy who claimed evolution was the work of Satan and craters on the moon were evidence of battles between angels and demons ( Seriously, he wrote an entire book about this ). He wasn't a scientist, he wasn't even a priest or a pastor. Dude was a friggan civil engineer.

                    Creationism has no basis or legitimacy whatsoever in anything. Not scientifically, not academically, not even theologically really. It also relies on a literal interpretation of the Book of Genesis ( Which is bad enough to begin with ) but also specifically the King James version ( Which is worse as the King James version is basically a translation of a translation done in the 1600s by people with an agenda ).

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Gilhelmi View Post
                      Those links you provided were fascinating Raps. With the inaccuracies in C14 actually making readings younger in most cases (example a 6500 years old sample, being read as 6000 years old). I think I will read a few more of those articles.
                      Many years ago, I read about a case where C14 showed a sample as being MUCH older than it actually was (IIRC, it was part of a study looking at how errors could be introduced into C14 dating). An annual grass, harvested while alive, came out reading approximately 10,000 years old. How did this happen? The grass was growing alongside a highway. The highway was heavily used by vehicles burning fossil fuels millions of years old, so the carbon dioxide taken in by the grass was depleted in C14.

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                      • #12
                        The thing that bugs me is the way the evolution deniers just make shit up: it says we evolved from chimpanzees being a prime example. If you do 10 minutes worth of reading on Wikipedia you'd know it never said that at all.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by wolfie View Post
                          Many years ago, I read about a case where C14 showed a sample as being MUCH older than it actually was (IIRC, it was part of a study looking at how errors could be introduced into C14 dating). An annual grass, harvested while alive, came out reading approximately 10,000 years old. How did this happen? The grass was growing alongside a highway. The highway was heavily used by vehicles burning fossil fuels millions of years old, so the carbon dioxide taken in by the grass was depleted in C14.
                          You are correct, but for the sake of clarity for Gilhemli: This effect is only relevant when using radiocarbon dating on a sample that is post industrial revolution. Which is not really an instance where you would need radiocarbon dating to determine its age to begin with. Since radiocarbon dating is used on biological samples for which all other available data sources are long gone.

                          This is also the crux of another fark up of creation "Science". A flawed understanding of radiocarbon dating combined with an ignorance of the various methods of radiometric dating.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by gremcint View Post
                            The thing that bugs me is the way the evolution deniers just make shit up: it says we evolved from chimpanzees being a prime example. If you do 10 minutes worth of reading on Wikipedia you'd know it never said that at all.
                            Yeah, that's a really persistent one and not just among evolution deniers.

                            But remember we're dealing with a movement started by a guy that looked at craters on the moon and thought "Angels fighting demons" so... >.>

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Rapscallion View Post
                              Answers in Genesis is run by Ken Ham, a man who devoutly believes in and evangelises about creationism. His research methods have been found to be faulty before, earning him the nickname 'bananaman'. He had a famous clip claiming that the banana was made for us because it's got a form that fits in the hand, lets us know when it's ready to be eaten, easy to open, etc. He did back away from that, to his credit, when it was pointed out that the banana has been heavily modified by human farming over the years.
                              actually bananaman is Ray comfort, a close friend of Ken Ham, Ham said absolutely nothing would change his mind on the age of the earth, not even a message from god.

                              Originally posted by Gravekeeper View Post
                              It does, frankly, disparage the term. Creationism was basically invented in the 60s by a nutjob from Texas. A guy who claimed evolution was the work of Satan and craters on the moon were evidence of battles between angels and demons ( Seriously, he wrote an entire book about this ). He wasn't a scientist, he wasn't even a priest or a pastor. Dude was a friggan civil engineer.
                              technically 1923 by a 9th grade dropout, seventh-day adventist named george mccready price, based off the reported dream of the church's founder. Henry Morris(the nutjob from texas)-used Ellen and George's writings as his foundation in the 60's, so it's even worse -_-
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