Insuting faith

[D_Yeti_Esquire]

athiests are a minority culture that are often belittled for not being in the majority and for standing up for their rights to not have faith shoved down their throat. people have been disowned for deconverting. in some countries, being an athiest can get you killed.

At least when you talk about Christians, you can understand where their oppressive culture originated from given originating in a Jewish province of a Roman empire. If not for Constantine, you'd be dealing with a different oppressor. Every oppressive religion out there dealt with that. Muslims deal with it in Sri Lanka, Christians deal with that in the Middle east, every religion dealt with that in Russia at one time. I hear that statement, and all I think is how do you figure that is NOT the normal pattern of humanity?

In the end when I hear anti-group rhetoric no matter the high-minded logic they've given it, all I hear is that team F wants their turn. People haven't changed. "Don't oppress me" is not the same as "Don't oppress people." And that's why it never goes away and no one trusts giving away what little power they have in the world. It's usually taken by force and the end result usually isn't fairness, it's just different oppression. Everyone is always justified (in the eyes of their group).

[Hyena Dandy]

athiests are a minority culture that are often belittled for not being in the majority and for standing up for their rights to not have faith shoved down their throat. people have been disowned for deconverting. in some countries, being an athiest can get you killed.
don't forget we have fratch-coloured-glasses on here. most places athiests have to debate don't have the no-personal-attacks rule. and it gets grating to be constantly mocked, threatened and attacked, while your aggressor is also playing the victim.

Yes, some places you CAN get killed for being atheist. Some places you can be killed for being Christian. Some places you can be killed for being Muslim. Sometimes, humanity sucks.

This is just trying to excuse bigotry. Because it's not like pushing back against a bully. It's like being bullied, then going pushing around the guy's brother because they look kinda similar. Hey, I was bullied by a black guy in elementary, you cool with me joining the KKK over that?

You can be a dick. And if someone tries to hurt you, or arrest you, or kill you over it, I'll stand with you against that shit. But that doesn't make you magically NOT a dick, just because some other people are ALSO dicks.

[Andara Bledin]

laughing at an athiest for fighting back against the religious majority is like laughing at the little kid trying to fight back when it gets shoved around by a bully. and then when the bully gets hit and cries, blaming the little kid as though they were the bully.

That one might have been bullied is absolutely no excuse to go around and bully others.

This isn't the only pro-atheist-above-others forum I'm a part of, and the other is a little more tolerant of broad attacks against the religious, with one member who goes out of his way to basically religion-bash in every post he can shoehorm the concept into, even if nobody else in the discussion had even brought it up. He's an asshole with an axe to grind and it drags the tenor of discussion down every time he starts swinging.

If you have a specific complaint about a specific person or spedific group of people, then have at. But if all you want to do is stand up in your bully pulpit and go on a tirade against a huge swathe of people based on broad stereotypes and assumptions, you're just a jerk and should maybe spend a little time looking in the mirror.

In the end when I hear anti-group rhetoric no matter the high-minded logic they've given it, all I hear is that team F wants their turn. People haven't changed. "Don't oppress me" is not the same as "Don't oppress people." And that's why it never goes away and no one trusts giving away what little power they have in the world. It's usually taken by force and the end result usually isn't fairness, it's just different oppression. Everyone is always justified (in the eyes of their group).

Pretty much this.

You can be a dick. And if someone tries to hurt you, or arrest you, or kill you over it, I'll stand with you against that shit. But that doesn't make you magically NOT a dick, just because some other people are ALSO dicks.

... and this.

[Panacea]

One such example might be turning on lights against a Hasidic Jew's wishes on a Saturday just to mess with them,

I asked a student of mine who is Jewish about this. Now a Hasidic Jew might have a different opinion (she was Orthodox, which is close but not quite the same), but what she told me is that it's not considered a sin for a non-Jew to turn on a light for you. It's you who can't do any work on the Sabbath (Friday sundown to Saturday sundown).

You could technically program your house to turn lights off and on at predetermined times to get around this: the work in setting up the system would be done before hand and therefore be OK.

we're all born as athiests. then we are taught the religion of our family. just as we are all born a-linguists (for lack of a better word) and then taught the languages of our families.

Athiesm is a belief system; or rather the active rejection of a belief system.

We are born unaware of religion. We are taught ti by our families and friends as we grow. Just as children born into a religious family may become disenchanted with the faith of their family and convert to a new religion, or reject religion completely, so they may grow up in an atheist home and have a religious conversion experience and grow in faith.

Communication is another matter. We are born able to communicate through our cries. Language then becomes more specialized as we grow, but we never lose that early language. There are plenty of examples (and I've seen this in person) of people who live for decades in another country, completely assimilating, speak the language perfectly who revert to their native languages when severely ill or dying.

- to the idea that athiests spend a lot of time religion-bashing: athiests are a minority culture that are often belittled for not being in the majority and for standing up for their rights to not have faith shoved down their throat. people have been disowned for deconverting. in some countries, being an athiest can get you killed.

Enough atheists spend time religion bashing to have given them a very bad name.

Anyone who is not of the majority in some countries is at risk of being harassed, discriminated against, imprisoned or killed. Atheists don't have the market cornered on that.

don't forget we have fratch-coloured-glasses on here. most places athiests have to debate don't have the no-personal-attacks rule. and it gets grating to be constantly mocked, threatened and attacked, while your aggressor is also playing the victim.
laughing at an athiest for fighting back against the religious majority is like laughing at the little kid trying to fight back when it gets shoved around by a bully. and then when the bully gets hit and cries, blaming the little kid as though they were the bully.

Just remember, the converse is true. I've visited many forums where many atheists behave the exact same way.

[TheHuckster]

I asked a student of mine who is Jewish about this. Now a Hasidic Jew might have a different opinion (she was Orthodox, which is close but not quite the same), but what she told me is that it's not considered a sin for a non-Jew to turn on a light for you. It's you who can't do any work on the Sabbath (Friday sundown to Saturday sundown).

My point was more in regards to changing the lights in such a way they don't want them on (or off) and by leaving them whichever way they did it's an inconvenience to them.

You are right about the automated systems. Communities with a concentration of Orthodox and Hasidic Jews often have systems that serve this very purpose, including elevators which stop at every level at all times so that you don't have to press any buttons and crosswalk signals which are on a schedule. I believe even if either were sensored it would still be considered a prohibited act, since you are still triggering the power as if you had actually pressed a button or flipped a switch.

[siead_lietrathua]

i think people are misunderstanding me.
there is a difference between saying something has a reason, and saying it's reasonable. there is a difference between me saying a kid hitting their bully has a reason, VS saying that them hitting their bully was a reasonable response to the problem.
just like athiests fighting back against religion from encroaching on secular spaces, and lashing out the more frustrated they get. i'm saying their behavior is a predictable, normal response that should shock noone.

[Gravekeeper]

Well, I'm lost.

[HYHYBT]

You could technically program your house to turn lights off and on at predetermined times to get around this: the work in setting up the system would be done before hand and therefore be OK.

My oven has a "Sabbath setting." I've never used it, but with it on, the oven will cycle on and off to hold its temperature for so many hours, but if the power goes out, the oven doesn't come back on. I believe that, during that cycle, you can change the temperature setting lower but not higher.

I believe even if either were sensored it would still be considered a prohibited act, since you are still triggering the power as if you had actually pressed a button or flipped a switch.

Hopefully the door sensors still work, to stop them from killing someone.

[wolfie]

I asked a student of mine who is Jewish about this. Now a Hasidic Jew might have a different opinion (she was Orthodox, which is close but not quite the same), but what she told me is that it's not considered a sin for a non-Jew to turn on a light for you. It's you who can't do any work on the Sabbath (Friday sundown to Saturday sundown).

I've heard the term "Sabbat Goy" - basically, a non-Jew hired to do things for jews that the "no work on the Sabbath" rule forbids them to do for themselves. A pre-programmed light system would be an automated version of this (or, if you prefer to see it that way, a case of technology destroying jobs).

Communities with a concentration of Orthodox and Hasidic Jews often have systems that serve this very purpose, including elevators which stop at every level at all times so that you don't have to press any buttons and crosswalk signals which are on a schedule.

I understand that with elevators, it's called "Sabbath mode". Of course, a paternoster would also be permitted by religious law - but not by safety authorities.