I'm not selfish, and I know why your wife left you (warning: TMI)

[cewfa]

I went to a men's group tonight and one of the topics that was brought up was masturbation. I went against the group, as I am an unrepentant masturbator. I don't feel like masturbation is a sin, nor do I feel like God cares whether or not you or I masturbate. I told them that there are animals that masturbate as well as have "alternative" sexual lifestyles. I asked if God really cared and if God sends animals to hell because they masturbate or exhibited homosexual tendencies. I have yet to get a satisfactory answer to this question, and one group mate told me I was selfish.

It took all of my willpower not to tell him to go fuck himself. He doesn't know me. I can tell you that I have done a lot for my community. I have taken it upon myself to start a group for adults on the autism spectrum. He was also telling us about how his wife left him and that she did this and that, and when she told him what she wanted for them to reconciliate that he told her that he wouldn't do that. Then he said that he didn't know why his wife left him. Protip, your wife left you because you're an asshole.

Christians really piss me off.

[Rageaholic]

This is one of my hot buttons as well. God gives us sexual drives and desires and then punishes us for using them, even when the only person affected is ourselves. I've heard all the Christian apologist BS trying to explain how this makes any sense at all. It doesn't and trying to make people ashamed of their sexuality is cruel.

[AccountingDrone]

If God didn't want us to fap, he would not have made us able to fap. [Would that be I fap, therefor I am?]

[mjr]

Christians really piss me off.

Please don't judge all Christians based on the ones in your group. I'm a Christian, and if I go longer than probably 3 or 4 days without sex, I take care of things myself, if you catch my drift.

I think I know where they're coming from. There's scripture in the Old Testament about not spilling your semen on the ground.

Read Genesis 38:8-10, which follows:

8 Then Judah said to Onan, “Sleep with your brother’s wife and fulfill your duty to her as a brother-in-law to raise up offspring for your brother.” 9 But Onan knew that the child would not be his; so whenever he slept with his brother’s wife, he spilled his semen on the ground to keep from providing offspring for his brother. 10 What he did was wicked in the Lord’s sight; so the Lord put him to death also.

Anyway, I think that's what they're referring to. There's no mention of anything like that anywhere in the New Testament.

But to further the point, another link I found says that Onan was put to death not because he "spilled his semen on the ground", but because he was intentionally trying to keep his brother's wife from getting pregnant.

More here: http://www.gotquestions.org/masturbation-sin.html

But I think what's going on with the men in the group is they're either interpreting scripture wrong, or they're being imprecise in what they're saying. Based on the link above, I think the argument that they're trying to make is that it's what happens during the act (i.e. fantasizing about someone) is the sin -- not the act of masturbating itself. Or, its the things that lead to masturbation (lust, etc.) that are the sins.

This site here: http://www.acts17-11.com/dialogs_masturbation.html

Says:

Since scripture does not forbid masturbation directly, neither should Christians in general.

I think it's commendable that you've started a group for adults on the autism spectrum. You'll be rewarded in some way or another for that. That's going to be a blessing to you, and to those who attend the group, and those who are near to those individuals.

[cewfa]

Having slept on the situation and cooled off some (I posted this when I was mad), I've come to realize that I shouldn't have expected any different from them. It isn't their opinion on the subject that pisses me off, more that someone who doesn't know me told me I am selfish. Especially someone who comes across as saying that it will be his way or the highway in terms of reconciling with his wife. He, himself, came across as very selfish, at least to me.

I can speak from personal experience that when you are in a relationship with someone if you approach it from the standpoint of it is my way or the highway that he/she is going to eventually choose the highway.

As for Christians, I know that these gentlemen mean well, and this will not stop me from going to church. I like church and I like to hear the teachings of the pastor and to worship. I won't let anyone take that away from me.

[Rageaholic]

But I think what's going on with the men in the group is they're either interpreting scripture wrong, or they're being imprecise in what they're saying. Based on the link above, I think the argument that they're trying to make is that it's what happens during the act (i.e. fantasizing about someone) is the sin -- not the act of masturbating itself. Or, its the things that lead to masturbation (lust, etc.) that are the sins.

I don't have any numbers to back this up, but don't most people fantasize when they masturbate?

[Andara Bledin]

Having slept on the situation and cooled off some (I posted this when I was mad), I've come to realize that I shouldn't have expected any different from them. It isn't their opinion on the subject that pisses me off, more that someone who doesn't know me told me I am selfish. Especially someone who comes across as saying that it will be his way or the highway in terms of reconciling with his wife. He, himself, came across as very selfish, at least to me.

He's projecting.

He's the selfish one, but since he can't admit that to himself and he's mad (at least subconsciously) about his own selfishness, he lashes out at others and decries them for being selfish, instead.

[AccountingDrone]

I don't have any numbers to back this up, but don't most people fantasize when they masturbate?

Can't men generally also depend on simple nerve stimulation and reflex? They certainly can get off with what I would consider minimal interaction in real sex. [What can I say, screwing teens back when I was that age is why I started seeing much older men - they didn't tend to pop off after a couple minutes of screwing and I could actually manage to get my rocks off as well. Patience is a virtue in men =) ]

[cewfa]

You know, in the 15 years I've been involved with church and Christians, Christians are the only people I know of that seem to be fascinated with what other people do with their bodies. It's starting make me a little uncomfortable. I almost want to ask these men if this is really about God and not some kinky fetish they have.

I may talk to the program coordinator at church on Sunday about it and see once what the deal is.

[Andara Bledin]

It's totally not a Christian only sort of thing.

It's an authoritarian sort of thing, and if you're in a majority-Christian environment, you're really only going to get that from Christians. Most authoritarians trying to use other holy creeds to support their authoritarianism are going to either do so in places where those creeds are the majority, or in isolation where those creeds are the majority.

Also, have you never heard of Jews pointing fingers about other Jews not being Jewish enough? And, depressingly enough, you run into the same sort of thing from Buddhists. It happens in any situation where there is an authority figure giving instruction on how to behave to those who are ostensibly less enlightened.

[Gravekeeper]

It's totally not a Christian only sort of thing.

Honestly? Yes, actually it is. Or more specifically its an Abrahamic religion thing. Authoritarianism is a separate matter from the problem of "Feel ashamed of your genitals or we'll stone you" thing that Abrahamic religions historically had going on. Though Abrahamic religions are, at their root, authoritarian to begin with.

The Precepts of Buddhism regarding sex are voluntary for self betterment for example. Not mandated or commanded. Authoritarianism is just the mechanism of enforcement, not the root problem of the whole sex/shame thing in Abrahamic religions. Symptom, not the disease, etc.

Obviously, these days not all denominations are like that at all. This its mainly just the fundie/conservative ones. They can't really stone you anymore so they had to ramp up the shame/guilt side of things. In some ways its actually more damaging.

[cewfa]

It's totally not a Christian only sort of thing.

It's an authoritarian sort of thing, and if you're in a majority-Christian environment, you're really only going to get that from Christians. Most authoritarians trying to use other holy creeds to support their authoritarianism are going to either do so in places where those creeds are the majority, or in isolation where those creeds are the majority.

Also, have you never heard of Jews pointing fingers about other Jews not being Jewish enough? And, depressingly enough, you run into the same sort of thing from Buddhists. It happens in any situation where there is an authority figure giving instruction on how to behave to those who are ostensibly less enlightened.

I get what you are saying, but from personal experience Christians are the only ones who have made it a point to tell me what I should and should not be doing with my penis. I guess it wasn't so obvious when I was younger and more impressionable, but now that I am older and more mature, it's starting to really weird me out. I'm starting to understand, for instance, how women feel when Christians (mainly) tell them how they should use their bodies and how they should and shouldn't reproduce. Men, in men's group, get the same shtick.

My theory is that these people repress themselves so much sexually and have issues coming to terms with their sexuality that this has nothing really to with God's commandments, as it is that they are acting out because they really repress themselves. Quite frankly, the more I think about the conversation in the group last night, the more I feel sexually assaulted in a way, and I am not sure I can go back to that group. I plan on taking to the Small Group Pastor on Sunday and letting him know how I feel.

[Panacea]

I don't feel like masturbation is a sin, nor do I feel like God cares whether or not you or I masturbate.

Didn't you know every sperm is sacred?

As for Christians, I know that these gentlemen mean well, and this will not stop me from going to church. I like church and I like to hear the teachings of the pastor and to worship. I won't let anyone take that away from me.

Good, you shouldn't. I'm Catholic, and pro-choice and pro gay marriage. Is that consistent with Church teachings? No. Is it a sin? Depends on who you ask. Do I care? No. I like my faith, and I'm more worried about what I do than what other people do.

You know, in the 15 years I've been involved with church and Christians, Christians are the only people I know of that seem to be fascinated with what other people do with their bodies. It's starting make me a little uncomfortable. I almost want to ask these men if this is really about God and not some kinky fetish they have.

Well, I think I can give you some perspective on where that comes from.

In the days of the early Church, Christianity started attracting a lot of Greek converts. The apostles, after some debate, accepted these converts. What you ended up with was a cultural clash, because Hellenistic culture was very different from Jewish culture of the day when it came to sex. In addition, the earliest converts to the Church, and the apostles themselves believed that Jesus would return to them within their own lifetimes.

Sex was viewed as necessary only for procreation. If the world was to end, there was no need to procreate, and in fact to bring children into the world seemed cruel. Single converts were encouraged not to marry. Married converts were encouraged to be celibate to avoid pregnancy.

The real issue with sex in Christianity is promiscuity. Sex to promote healthy relations between husband and wife for the purpose of creating children is considered a good thing. Sex out of wedlock was bad; it created bastards that still needed to be cared for, damaged family alliances and endangered the property of the family or clan.

Here's the other thing too: In Judiasm, men could obtain divorces from their wives when they tired of them. The divorced women were often shamed and had few prospects, little property. Ancient Jewish laws actually protected women (women had a right to sex when they wanted it, but men didn't), but were largely ignored.

That's where Jesus came from when he spoke against divorced; he was actually supporting women's ancient rights in marriage.

Christians often take what little the Bible says about sex too literally. The real point is to promote healthy relationships between men and women for the benefit of healthy families, to protect children, and to protect the tribe as a whole.

So bottom line: unless masterbation is done to the point where it interferes with healthy relationships or the daily business of life, there's really nothing wrong with it, and it is perfectly natural and healthy.

[Gravekeeper]

Didn't you know every sperm is sacred?

On penalty of death in Judaism, scarily enough. >.>

Well, I think I can give you some perspective on where that comes from.

You've got some things the wrong way around here.

The real issue with sex in Christianity is promiscuity. Sex to promote healthy relations between husband and wife for the purpose of creating children is considered a good thing. Sex out of wedlock was bad; it created bastards that still needed to be cared for, damaged family alliances and endangered the property of the family or clan.

No, women weren't much better than property and treated as such. Sex to promote healthy relations between husband and wife is a major theme to Judaism not Christianity. Also in Judaism, a bastard child, as it were, holds a different social status that limits their marriage options but are considered full relatives for the purpose of inheritance. But the status of being born from adultery or incest is considered hereditary and such a bastard's children will also be considered the same. So still sucks.

Here's the other thing too: In Judiasm, men could obtain divorces from their wives when they tired of them. The divorced women were often shamed and had few prospects, little property. Ancient Jewish laws actually protected women (women had a right to sex when they wanted it, but men didn't), but were largely ignored.

That's where Jesus came from when he spoke against divorced; he was actually supporting women's ancient rights in marriage.

Other way around. Judaism was the most accepting of divorce of the Big 3. It basically has no fault divorce which could be initiated by either or both parties. Judaism holds domestic harmony in high esteem and it was viewed as better to divorce than live in disharmony. A Jewish woman was not shamed for being divorced. A problem only emerged if she did not obtain a Get ( a document showing that she was actually divorced ). Which she needed in order to remarry without it being considered adultery.

A husband could withhold one to be vindictive ( but he likewise needed one too ) but the wife could petition whomever the local authority was who would then step in on her behalf.

When Jesus speaks of divorce, he specifically speaks against this Jewish practice and laws of divorce when he speaks against divorce and promotes one far more rigid.

Oh, and Jewish men were mandated to have sex with their wives on a regular schedule depending on their occupation. >.>

Christians often take what little the Bible says about sex too literally. The real point is to promote healthy relationships between men and women for the benefit of healthy families, to protect children, and to protect the tribe as a whole.

The word is seriously, not literally. Its quite literal about this. That is also not the point at all, no. Women were basically property complete with "you break it you buy" policies.

And while Judaism seems much more progressive about these things in ancient times, it has just as many insane rules about what you can and can't do with your penis as Christianity does. Death for masturbation, menstruating women basically being considered the single most unholy thing on the planet and not to be touched even under threat of death, etc.

But since modern society tends to frown on things like stoning and what not now, the throw backs that still cling to said dusty passages have moved on to guilty, shame, etc instead.

[Crazedclerkthe2nd]

Theologically, masturbation is a grey area. The question "Is masturbation sinful?" is a loaded one for any Christian to deal with. A lot of it focuses on two scriptures from the New Testament. One , a teaching of Christ from Matthew:

For out of the heart come evil thoughts—murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. These are what defile a person; but eating with unwashed hands does not defile them.”

The other, from Ephesians:

Follow God’s example, therefore, as dearly loved children and walk in the way of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.
But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God’s holy people.

You might notice both verses contain the term "sexual immorality". The constant debates over whether or not masturbation is sinful are usually focused on what exactly is meant by "sexual immorality" in these scriptures. Some Christians do not consider mastrubation to be sexually immoral, others do. The same can be said for anal sex and sex toys.

Personally I believe that masturbation can occur without lustful thoughts. I do not consider masturbation sinful. Being married, I usually approach it as "my wife always has first dibs on me". If she takes a pass for whatever reason then I usually end up looking after things myself (with her being aware of it).
I don't want my masturbation to get to a point where it would hurt the sexual part of my marriage. If it did, then I could see myself being plainly into sinful territory.

The question of masturbation as a single person is theologically more convoluted. Because if God says "Don't Masturbate" and He says "Don't have sex until you're married" then He's left no possible non-sinful avenue open for a single person to get a sexual release. Obviously even single people need release from time to time. Naturally the question becomes: Why would God wall us in like that?

Which leads us back to the debate over whether or not He actually did.

Remember the words "sexual immorality" in the scriptures above are taken from an English TRANSLATION of a very old text. It's easy to lose or distort meaning in translation. This further muddies the picture of what exactly "sexual immorality" means.

Personally I think the exact meaning of these scriptures should be left to personal interpretation. That's pretty much all we have when there's no clear right or wrong spelled out.

Our hearts are good guides. If something really is wrong or detrimental to our physical, spiritual or mental health, we're going to know it.