Thread from CS: Religious advice -- struggling here.

[mjr]

I'll try not to get into fratching territory here. Mods, if this is inappropriate, let me know, and I'll start this in fratching.

I'm sure that some of you have heard the expression "There's a special place in Hell..."

Well, here's what I'm struggling with:

I have a good friend of mine who is very Christian. I turn to him sometimes when I have a question about Christianity, to get his opinion, being a believer myself.

He believes that if you're a Christian, and you ask for forgiveness, it's granted, regardless of what you do.

But I'm having trouble reconciling that with some of the actions that people have taken. I mean, I believe in Salvation and such, too, but I do struggle sometimes with whether or not some actions still allow people to get into Heaven, if they ask forgiveness.

I started this because of something I recall that happened a few years back near where I live, and a horrifying video I watched today on CNN.

A few years back, there was a case where a guy and his wife quite literally starved their 10 year old to death. They were both convicted and got jail time, but I can only imagine the pain, betrayal, and loneliness the kid felt as he slowly died...because his parents intentionally withheld food.

Today I see one on CNN about some @$$hole dentist in Florida who does unnecessary things to his "patients" (which I believe are kids), and then charges it to Medicare (because most of the parents of the kids are on Medicare).

There's a video with an interview of one of the moms where they were supposed to get one tooth pulled, and the dentist pulled seven.

Even more horrifying was the VIDEO of the little girl who was literally restrained in the dentist chair (hands and feet) terrified and screaming in terror (and likely high pain) and writhing to try to get free. And the doctor is acting as if nothing out of the ordinary is happening. I can only imagine the terror and the horror going through the little girl's mind (I think it's a girl, hard to tell, just going by what the clothing looks like). And apparently the dentist didn't allow parents in the room. I think a parent can recognize their kid's screams, so I wonder if the parent tried to go back and they wouldn't let them. I'm sure if you google something like CNN Florida Dentist child abuse you'll find it.

I have a hard time reconciling these actions with these people getting into Heaven...especially considering that they did what they did to CHILDREN

It really affected me. I may have trouble sleeping tonight because of it...

I don't know if there's a way to reconcile this...

What say you?

[Kheldarson]

Powerful question.

It also illustrates a major difference between Protestant denominations and Catholic rites.

We don't believe in the "one time guarantee". We believe that through God's grace we are saved, but we can lose that salvation. We lose the grace and salvation through our actions and deeds. So while good works aren't necessary to receive God's grace, at the same time, if you're not doing good deeds through God's grace, then what are you doing? Either sinning or wasting His grace, both of which are a rejection of his salvation.

More explanatory answer:

Some people promote an especially attractive idea: All true Christians, regardless of how they live, have an absolute assurance of salvation, once they accept Jesus into their hearts as "their personal Lord and Savior." The problem is that this belief is contrary to the Bible and constant Christian teaching.

Keep in mind what Paul told the Christians of his day: "If we have died with him [in baptism; see Rom. 6:3-4] we shall also live with him; if we persevere we shall also reign with him" (2 Tim. 2:11-12). If we do not persevere, we shall not reign with him. In other words, Christians can forfeit heaven.

The Bible makes it clear that Christians have a moral assurance of salvation (God will be true to his word and will grant salvation to those who have faith in Christ and are obedient to him [1 John 4:19-24]), but the Bible does not teach that Christians have a guarantee of heaven. There can be no absolute assurance of salvation.

Writing to Christians, Paul said, "See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness, otherwise you too will be cut off" (Rom. 11:22-23; see also 1 Cor. 15:1-2, Heb. 10:26-29, 2 Pet. 2:20-21).

Note that Paul includes an important condition: "provided you remain in his kindness." He is saying that Christians can lose their salvation by throwing it away. He warns, "Whoever thinks he is standing secure should take care not to fall" (1 Cor. 10:11-12).

If anyone asks you if you have been "saved," you should say, "I am redeemed by the blood of Christ, I trust in him alone for my salvation, and, as the Bible teaches, I am `working out my salvation in fear and trembling' (Phil. 2:12), knowing that it is God's gift of grace that is working in me."

So, essentially, the folks in your scenarios may claim to be Christian, but until they reject evil works, repent of their evil (and for Catholics that includes doing penance to make up for what you did wrong), and "go forth and sin no more" by doing good, it's unlikely that they'd be going directly to Heaven.

[cewfa]

Man, that sucks, and I feel where you are coming from, because I am going through something similar.

This is kind of a waste of post, since I have nothing to contribute, but I just wanted to lend some support.

[Gravekeeper]

I have a hard time reconciling these actions with these people getting into Heaven...especially considering that they did what they did to CHILDREN

Well, to be completely honest, this is the inherent problem with an absolute morality system. It requires an absolute scoring system to define good and evil. Whereas the world does not and has not ever worked that way. There are too many shades of grey involved. You can't look at it in terms of good ( you're in ) and evil ( you're out ). Or you'll give yourself a nosebleed once a week reading the news.

The most powerful weapon you can wield at this point is understanding. You don't need to judge or forgive. But if you understand it may bring you some more peace on subjects like this. "Evil" doesn't just emerge fully formed from a vacuum.

In both the cases you're talking about for example, it takes a profound lack of empathy to neglect or harm a child. As in, a psychological absence of it. Be it psychopathy, a personality disorder or narcissistic disorder. The dentist sounds like he could fit a narcissistic personality disorder for example. In which case you have a problem. Who do you blame at that point, from a spiritual perspective?

The amount of factors that go into to something like a personality disorder is pretty broad. Genetics, parenting, brain structure, etc. Do you hold someone's soul eternally accountable for the flaws in its meat suit? That isn't really fair as it means people are getting fucked from birth both in this world and the next.

So yes, not to go all Dalai Llama on you here but understanding and compassion will get you further than trying to mentally debate who deserves eternal damnation and who deserves a free pass into the club house. Its much harder to do. Much much harder. As you have to stand above your own base emotions as well. But I find the world makes a lot more sense ( and is more bearable ) if you can.

[Andara Bledin]

He believes that if you're a Christian, and you ask for forgiveness, it's granted, regardless of what you do.

From what I understand, to be granted forgiveness for your sins, you actually have to repent of them. Divine forgiveness isn't handed out like complimentary mints at the local Olive Garden.

Throwing out 5 Hail Marys isn't some shortcut to absolution.

The important part is to believe that those who do terrible things will get what they deserve in the hereafter and to continue with your own life, doing your best to be a good and decent human being.

[s_stabeler]

I think the issue is primarily a case of a difference in what you believe counts as asking for forgiveness. It's NOT just praying to god to ask. It's showing that you understand that you were sinning- and acting better in the future. If you do, then God won't slam the door in your face.

Indeed, technically, the prayer asking for forgiveness for your sins is actually unnessecary- if you act in a reasonably good way, you won't be condemned. (which is why I call bullshit on the idea, in the medieval era ( I don't know if it still exists or not) that a baby who dies pre-baptism is condemned to hell.)

there's also the question about if you need to "earn" a place in heaven- by following religion, including all the ceremonies, etc, or if you simply have to avoid outright rejecting God- In other words, if you are neither notably good, or notably evil, what happens? it's my belief that you enter heaven. In the Middle Ages, I believe the Church taught that unless you followed religion- more or less exactly- you were condemned to hell.

[Kheldarson]

(which is why I call bullshit on the idea, in the medieval era ( I don't know if it still exists or not) that a baby who dies pre-baptism is condemned to hell.)

there's also the question about if you need to "earn" a place in heaven- by following religion, including all the ceremonies, etc, or if you simply have to avoid outright rejecting God- In other words, if you are neither notably good, or notably evil, what happens? it's my belief that you enter heaven. In the Middle Ages, I believe the Church taught that unless you followed religion- more or less exactly- you were condemned to hell.

Well, neither one of those positions are taught anymore, and I'm pretty sure the Church has never held that pre-baptized babies went to hell; Limbo/Purgatory would be worst case scenario.

[cindybubbles]

This is why we Catholics have a third option: purgatory. It feels like hell, but it has an exit door leading to Heaven. You go there to purify yourself of your sins if you repent after you die, I think.

[cindybubbles]

Well, neither one of those positions are taught anymore, and I'm pretty sure the Church has never held that pre-baptized babies went to hell; Limbo/Purgatory would be worst case scenario.

My Church always held the stance that pre-baptized and unborn babies went to Heaven because they are already pure.

[wolfie]

I think the issue is primarily a case of a difference in what you believe counts as asking for forgiveness. It's NOT just praying to god to ask. It's showing that you understand that you were sinning- and acting better in the future. If you do, then God won't slam the door in your face.

One Bible verse has Jesus telling a woman "Go forth and sin no more". Sounds like this is what you're talking about regarding forgiveness - He is forgiving her for her past behaviour, conditional on not continuing it.

there's also the question about if you need to "earn" a place in heaven- by following religion, including all the ceremonies, etc, or if you simply have to avoid outright rejecting God- In other words, if you are neither notably good, or notably evil, what happens? it's my belief that you enter heaven.

Wouldn't Purgatory fit into this? The "blue light specials" (anyone remember the old, short-lived TV series "Second Chance"?) get a chance to repent their sins (note that anyone who crossed the "moral event horizon" - Hitler is the classic example - is by definition not a "blue light special") and be admitted to Heaven.

[s_stabeler]

yes and no. IF purgatory exists- and I don't personally believe it does- then I figure it's for the people who've been bad, but not really bad enough to justify keeping them out of heaven. People who've been neither good nor bad still get into heaven. ( basically, the way I believe it, if you are actively evil, you can't get into heaven. If you were neither good nor evil (overall, anyway) you can get into heaven. If you are generally a good, moral person, you get into heaven. If you are completely pure, that's what Saints are.)


but as for go forth and sin no more- yes and no. You don't have to be perfect afterwards, but it's the right idea. Basically, what is not acceptable is asking for forgiveness, then going right back on with the behavior you were asking for forgiveness for.

[Kheldarson]

yes and no. IF purgatory exists- and I don't personally believe it does- then I figure it's for the people who've been bad, but not really bad enough to justify keeping them out of heaven. People who've been neither good nor bad still get into heaven. ( basically, the way I believe it, if you are actively evil, you can't get into heaven. If you were neither good nor evil (overall, anyway) you can get into heaven. If you are generally a good, moral person, you get into heaven. If you are completely pure, that's what Saints are.)

Actually, Purgatory, as taught by the Church, is where most folks start. I'll have to find the verse later, but one of the supporting verses for Purgatory is where Jesus declares that he'll purify us as in a refiner's fire. The idea is that if you die with sin still upon you, you'll be cleansed in Purgatory. Saints, by definition, skip Purgatory, having served their time here.

[Tama]

If you believe Dante's Inferno, then purgatory is where the sins are purged out of you as you ascend to heaven.

The first ring of hell is just a bunch of nice people who were never baptized or were pagans. They're not tormented but they're absent from God. Sadness without sorrow.

[Titi]

I remember asking my mother about this when I was a teen. Both of my parents were Ministers. She told me that just asking for forgiveness was not enough to get you into heaven. You have to be SINCERE about it. When you are sincere you show true remorse for what you did and she said ( it was another situation similar to what you said that prompted me to ask the question) they are only praying because they got caught.

[Hyena Dandy]

My understanding of those beliefs is that, effectively, if you are Christian, you have Faith in God, you are driven by God to do God's work. If you do something abjectly evil, intentionally - Then clearly, you can't have been driven by God to do evil. So rather than a one-time guarantee it is more that... You can't have evil in your heart. So if a Christian of those sects does something evil, say hurts someone, then one a few things must be the explanation.

1) They did so unwittingly. If, for example, I open a door on your face, I have harmed you. I didn't know you were there, though.

2) They did so accidentally. Like unwittingly, they might have KNOWN they shouldn't do it, but mistakenly did. Clicked the wrong button on a computer, dropped something, etc. Not that they had no idea what could happen if they did it, but rather, they just didn't mean to do it.

3) They did so falsely. If, for example, a less pacifist version of me believed someone was trying to break into their house, and so, to defend themselves, struck them. Now, suppose that that person was not, in fact, trying to break in and take something, but was simply confused, and believed they had lost the key to their own house. I may have hurt them, but I did so because I was misinformed.

4) They weren't 'Saved' in the first place. This seems a little like a No True Scotsman thing, but from a theological perspective, it's distinct. Since they believe, theologically, no Christian would do evil because no Christian could WANT to do evil, someone who does, cannot have been Christian, as that would have kept them on the right path. Again, this isn't quite a No True Scotsman, as it is a definitional issue from a theological perspective. Do bad stuff, you weren't saved. In the same way that I could say "Someone who believes in a strong central government and heavily regulating corporations is not an anarcho-capitalist." It's a case where "Christian" theologically is different from Christian in non-theological conversation.

The one-time deal works on the grounds that either you are saved, and thus, not evil, and thus, must have done evil for other reasons. Or you are not, and merely calling yourself Christian, either because you've been tricked into thinking y ou are, or to harm others.

Now, I have plenty of points of disagreement on this. Don't mistake my attempting to summarize my best understanding of the "If you're a Christian you're automatically saved" thing as an attempt at defending the position, I'm just explaining it, and if you want to argue why those points are wrong, well, you're arguing with the wrong person. I probably agree with you.

Edit: I also have views on heaven and salvation, that I won't much get into here.