Thread from CS: Religious advice -- struggling here.

[jedimaster91]

Many have touched on the idea that there has to be some sort of penance to be truly forgiven of one's sins. Also that one must strive to do better next time. The way I've taught it to my Sunday School classes is as follows:
--Acknowledge wrong doing and accept responsibility
--Pray for forgiveness
--Ask the one(s) wronged for forgiveness
--Make restitution
--Don't do it again

So a really simplified example is kids playing too rough in the house and breaking something. Kid has to admit they broke it and then do chores around the house in order to earn money to replace it. And then remember to not play so rough in the house anymore.

As for the things you do wrong that you don't realize, most Christian religions have some kind of sacrament/communion. I can only speak for my own religion, but the sacrament acts as a renewal of baptism and washes clean all those little sins you didn't know you committed. Some "bigger" sins do require the help of the clergy to overcome. And of course, one is expected to comply with any and all legal punishments if a crime is committed.

[Panacea]

He believes that if you're a Christian, and you ask for forgiveness, it's granted, regardless of what you do.

It's important to understand there are VAST differences between what various sects of Christianity believe.

Catholics believe it takes a combination of good works and grace to go to Heaven. Grace is obtained by declaring Jesus Christ your savior and following his faith. Once you've heard the Good News you must follow Jesus to obtain Grace.

Protestants believe you only need grace. Some denominations believe that grace is bestowed by God only and that no one knows who gets it, even if they are devout believers.

No one knows who goes to heaven, hell, or purgatory. I believe in Hell. I don't know if anyone is in there, other than Satan.

Absolution requires repentance and an effort to make things right through penance.

[wolfie]

No one knows who goes to heaven, hell, or purgatory. I believe in Hell. I don't know if anyone is in there, other than Satan.

If Hitler, Stalin, and Pol Pot (spelling) aren't there, then the existence of Hell is pointless.

[Crazedclerkthe2nd]

I remember asking my mother about this when I was a teen. Both of my parents were Ministers. She told me that just asking for forgiveness was not enough to get you into heaven. You have to be SINCERE about it. When you are sincere you show true remorse for what you did and she said ( it was another situation similar to what you said that prompted me to ask the question) they are only praying because they got caught.

I generally believe the same. You can get forgiveness from God without salvation from God. That is to say, you can be forgiven for a sin but that's no guarantee of going to heaven.

Repenting from that sin and choosing to follow God more obediently are big factors in reaching the point of salvation that would get you to heaven.

Getting forgiveness from God for sin is the easy part. It's what you do AFTER that that determines if you'll make it to heaven.

[Tama]

How does the Bible put it?

"Faith without works is dead"?

[Barracuda]

Indeed. It also says that works without faith are also dead. For what it's worth, Catholic and Protestant theologians have been struggling with this one for centuries. The verses in the Bible are pretty clear, I think--that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe that God raised Him from the dead, that you will be saved. One could also argue that all sins are equally bad in God's eyes, and all deserve death ("For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 6:23 "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Romans 3:23 "18So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. 19For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. 20The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. 1What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?" Romans 5:19-6:2)

My advice would be to read the epistles, especially Romans. It deals with a lot of these questions. C.S. Lewis, quite possibly the most brilliant theologian of the 20th century, also have some good advice in Mere Christianity and some interesting hypotheses in The Great Divorce.

I believe simply this--God, through the sacrifice of Jesus's death, can and will forgive any sin, no matter how large for those who repent and seek Him. We may be angry in some ways over this, but do not forget that He changes those who truly seek Him. God is a God of Justice, but He is also Love. Only He can truly know what is in anyone's heart.

[Kheldarson]

I believe simply this--God, through the sacrifice of Jesus's death, can and will forgive any sin, no matter how large for those who repent and seek Him. We may be angry in some ways over this, but do not forget that He changes those who truly seek Him. God is a God of Justice, but He is also Love. Only He can truly know what is in anyone's heart.

True, but you've also come back to the main idea the rest of us have discussed with works: that truly seeking Christ changes you. It is impossible to know Christ and still continue to do great evil.

[Barracuda]

A good point. I suppose one could legitimately argue that those who claimed to be Christians and then committed great evil never truly knew Christ at all.

[s_stabeler]

the way I interpret it, actually- and not having fully read the bible, I admit i may be wrong- is that it isn't the act ( the works) that gets you into heaven, but why you do it. To give an example, it is mentioned that Lucius Malfoy in the Harry Potter books donated money to St Mungoes because it would get him greater influence. THAT I would consider works without faith, since he did it solely for the temporal benefits. Someone, however, who donated money to charity because they wanted to help- regardless of if they did because they were christian or not- would get the benefit from it, because they did it for a selfless reason.

[Kheldarson]

the way I interpret it, actually- and not having fully read the bible, I admit i may be wrong- is that it isn't the act ( the works) that gets you into heaven, but why you do it. To give an example, it is mentioned that Lucius Malfoy in the Harry Potter books donated money to St Mungoes because it would get him greater influence. THAT I would consider works without faith, since he did it solely for the temporal benefits. Someone, however, who donated money to charity because they wanted to help- regardless of if they did because they were christian or not- would get the benefit from it, because they did it for a selfless reason.

More or less.

There's a Christian hymn/anthem: "And they will know we are Christians by our love."

[TheHuckster]

The way I interpret it is this:

If you think of your faith as a relationship with God, then your good deeds are solely to please God the same way one would do anything to please someone they care about. For instance, I choose not to cheat on my wife because doing so would greatly hurt her, not because doing so would greatly hurt me if she were to ever find out.

A lot of people, especially the fire and brimstone types, preach to do things just to avoid hell rather than to please God. This is why I strongly resent the hell-fire preaching style where the implication is the motive for doing or not doing something is solely because you don't want to go to hell, which is the incorrect lesson. If you are faithful, then your motivation for good works should be to reinforce the relationship you have, not solely to avoid the wrath that might occur if you don't.

And, of course, with that is the altruistic feeling of satisfaction if you do good works, which is something one can feel with or without religion.

[jedimaster91]

To give an example, it is mentioned that Lucius Malfoy in the Harry Potter books donated money to St Mungoes because it would get him greater influence. THAT I would consider works without faith, since he did it solely for the temporal benefits. Someone, however, who donated money to charity because they wanted to help- regardless of if they did because they were christian or not- would get the benefit from it, because they did it for a selfless reason.

There's a story in the Bible about the widow's mite. Other, more affluent, people looked down on the poor (as in not rich) widow for how little money she was giving in tithes. But Jesus pointed out that the small amount she was giving was not only proportionally much more than others, but it was being given in humility and faith without any expectation of earthly recognition or reward. It's always been one of my favorite lessons because whatever one does in faith is enough for God and He will make up the rest.