churches making it hard for members to leave

[smileyeagle1021]

As many of you know from CS, I'm right now struggling to have my membership removed from the LDS church. I'll post here what I can't post on CS.
Here is the letter the sent me, almost word for word (edited out names)

Dear Brother Smiley,

I have been asked to acknowledge your recent letter in which you request that your name be removed from the membership records of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

I have also been asked to inform you that the Church considers such a request to be an ecclesiastical matter that must be handled by local priesthood leaders before being process by Church employees. Therefore, your letter and a copy of this reply are being sent to President (name) of (not my stake). He will have Bishop (name) of the (not my ward) contact you concerning the fulfillment of your request.

In view of the eternal consequences of such an action, the Brethren urge you to reconsider your request and to prayerfully consider the enclosed statement of the First Presidency.

Sincerely,
(name)

and then there was a statement from the first presidency... a prepared pamphlet actually... which makes you wonder... how many people are requesting to have their membership removed that they have a pre-made and mass produced pamphlet about it.
Here's what it says

An Invitation to Come Back

We reach out to members of the Church throughout the world in a spirit of love and brotherhood inspired by the Lord Jesus Christ.

Our interest and concern are always with the individual man or woman, boy or girl. Our great responsibility is to see that each is "remembered and nourished by by the good word of God" (Moroni 6:4). If any have been offended, we are sorry. Our only desire is to cultivate a spirit of mercy and kindness, of understanding and healing. We seek to follow the example of our Lord, who "went about doing good" (Acts 10:38).

To you who for any reason find yourselves outside the embrace of the Church, we say come back. We invite you to return and partake of the happiness you once knew. You will find many with outstretched arms to welcome you, assist you, and give you comfort.

The Church needs your strength, love, loyalty, and devotion. The course is fixed and certain by which a person may return to the full blessings of Church membership, and we stand ready to receive all who wish to do so.

Sincerely yous,
The first presidency

you know, first off, if it is supposed to be handled by my local priesthood, why did they forward to to a different ward in a different stake... were they afraid my own bishop may be too understanding or something, or does Bishop (not my bishop) just have more experience with stopping gays from leaving the church? And the eternal consequences... according to Church leadership I'm going to hell whether I'm a member of the church or not... so what good does it do me to go back.

and as to the pamphlet... spirit of mercy and kindness, of understanding and healing... y'all chose a rather strange way of showing it. Removing the marriages of thousands of loving couples... that's how you show mercy and kindness. Ostrecizing members who don't follow the prophet exactly, that's how you show understanding. Give me a fucking break.

And why do I get the feeling when they say that there will be people to welcome me, assist me, and give me comfort, they mean there will be people who will force me back in the closet and remind me about how if I ever come out again I'll go straight to hell?

And seriously... you know as well as I do that I can't be a member in good standing as I am... so why are you fighting so hard to keep me as a member?

[Boozy]

I think I'm missing something about how the LDS Church operates, so I have to ask: Why can't you just stop going to church?

I'm probably on a list of United Church members somewhere (I was confirmed there when I was 12) but I could not care less. I just don't go to church.

I'm guessing the LDS church actively bothers you like a telemarketer who's got your number?

[smileyeagle1021]

Boozy, there are two reasons why I can't just stop going, one altruistic and one practical.
The practical is that as long as I am a member it is the preisthood's duty to do anything they can to keep you an active member of the church... they will call, they will knock on your door, they're always polite etc. but they don't like to let people just leave.
The altruistic reason... I'm sorry, but if I'm not good enough to be accepted as I am as an active member of the church I don't want them to be able to at the end of the year stand up and proclaim their membership numbers with me included... they can't have it both ways, I want them to either accept me as I am, or stop using me as a number.

[Boozy]

Your first reason makes perfect sense. You want to be left alone, and if you have to go through a bunch of nonsense with them to do so, then so be it. I've never been to a church that has gone to such great lengths to keep a member. You can't browbeat people into believing.

While I understand your second reason, I can't help but think that your time, energy, and your desire to help the gay movement might be better focused elsewhere. It's highly unlikely that your campaign to remove your single name from the ranks of LDS will cause any change in the church. I completely agree that it makes no sense for them to want you as a member while at the same time condemning you. But then, many things about religion make no sense.

If I were you, I'd be happy if I could just get them to stop calling and visiting. If you're serious about it, I'd think a restraining order would do the trick.

[kiwi]

I was raised LDS but am no longer one. I have many friends and family who still are and I love and respect them.

However the LDS church is known for ignoring requests to be removed from their records for American members even though
BY LAW they MUST comply with these requests the moment they are given a written request to do so.

In the United States and in many other countries a person has a basic right to simply resign from any church or religious organization, no matter what the church says about what you need to do to 'remove your name from the records'

Exmormon.org

http://www.MormonNoMore.com

IMO you shouldn't have to be happy if they just stop bothering you, you have a right that they must comply to by law and what gets my heckles up so much about this issue is that it was DRUMMED into me as a child that to be a good mormon, I must obey the law of the land as well as the law of God. Yet some of the church authorities think that they do not have to abide by that law themselves.

You have every right to be removed from an organisation that makes you feel unwelcome or wrong for living a "lifestyle" you were born into, regardless of if they believe its a choice or not.

I have already gone through this problem with a very close personal friend, his dad was a bishop which made the pressure even more intense. He ended up having to literally move to the other end of NZ and cut off ALL contact with his family for years because they wouldn't stop hounding him. It took his Aunt who is a staunch LDS to even convince him to come to his grandmothers funeral because it was being held at his old ward and he was terrified about coming, so much so he had to take a sedative and refused to sit with his family. Throughout the service people were whispering and pointing about how "naughty" he was.

Take away the religious aspect of this particular case, say this was a drama club or rotary club.... people would be completely weirded out that they wouldn't accept your resignation and wanted to drag you in front of a supposed confidential panel that would berate you and call your life evil and wrong. Let me tell you there are NO secrets, no confidential matters, at least in my old ward.

Quoth smileyeagle1021 From CS
I know as well as they do that the only end result of me coming back to the church is that they later put me in front of a church discipline committee and excommunicate me... how the is that beneficial for either me or the church?

The reason they want to do this SE is because they need to make an example of you for all of the other members who are not following doctrine, it also relieves them of their spiritual duty to save your soul as they are charged with this when they accept ecclesiastical authority. They give you a chance to repent your sins against God..err Doctrine and if you refuse then in their eyes they have done all they can.

Good luck Smiley

[Amethyst Hunter]

The reason they want to do this SE is because they need to make an example of you for all of the other members who are not following doctrine, it also relieves them of their spiritual duty to save your soul as they are charged with this when they accept ecclesiastical authority.

This. Also, it's about the money. One less member means one less wallet to bleed for the next time they gear up propaganda for crap like Prop 8.

[smileyeagle1021]

This. Also, it's about the money. One less member means one less wallet to bleed for the next time they gear up propaganda for crap like Prop 8.

speaking of... something I just learned and think is rather interesting...
a member who has been disfellowshipped but not excommunicated is still expected to pay tithing... umm... whiskey tango foxtrot... why would someone who is no longer in good standing have any desire to pay tithing?

[Sylvia727]

whiskey tango foxtrot... why would someone who is no longer in good standing have any desire to pay tithing?

To get back into good standing? I don't know LDS, but that seems like a pretty basic action-and-reaction to me. For a member of any community in poor standing to be raised back up to good standing, it generally helps to behave like all the other good little boys and girls.

Good luck getting out, and kudos to you for deciding what's best for you and then doing it.

[TTAZ]

Smiley, why did you join LDS? I seem to recall you saying something somewhere about how "they make you believe the church will solve your problems, no matter what they are." If that was indeed the case, then couldn't it be argued that the church let YOU down? They didn't fulfill the promise laid out to you by their missionaries/priesthood holders. Why are you being hassled and not the young men out there making promises on behalf of the church that they cannot keep?

This is why I always say I have no problem with religion, but I can't stand churches. Jesus didn't need one, neither do I. Faith is inspired by <<deity>>, churches are made by man.

[Slytovhand]

Dear <NAME>,

I am acknowledging your recent letter in which you acknowledged my letter requesting that my name be removed from the membership records of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

I have to inform you that the LAW considers such a request to be a harrassment matter that may be handled by local lawyers and constabulary if ignored by Church employees. Therefore, your letter and a copy of this reply are being sent to (name), my lawyer and the local police (in my stake). He may contact you concerning the fulfillment of your request.

In view of the legal consequences of such an action, my lawyer urges you to fully consider my request and to respectfully consider the enclosed copy of the constitution.

Sincerely,
Unhappy SmileyEagle




Go for it Smiley! Is there a copy of the letter you sent to them?

[smileyeagle1021]

Go for it Smiley! Is there a copy of the letter you sent to them?

Yes, I can copy it (compliments of mormonnomore.com... seriously, any church that has website to assist you to leave, has some serious issues to work through)... it is a somewhat softer tone than what you suggested.

Your name
Address
City, State, Zip
Birthdate

Date

Member Records
50 E North Temple, Room 1372
SLC UT 84150-5310

Attached you will find a photocopy of my formal letter of resignation, which your office received on ___________(the date), as you can see from the stamp your office put on the letter. I have kept a copy of this stamped letter as proof that you got my resignation.

As you know, I stopped being a member of your church on the day you received my letter. It is clear that someone in your office thinks I don't know what my rights are. I do NOT have to contact anyone else regarding my resignation. As a non-member I am no longer subject to your rules and regulations or policies. I DO have a right to get a letter of confirmation from you that states that my name has been removed from the membership rosters of the church.

Please stop wasting time and effort and handle my resignation appropriately. If you don't handle this appropriately, I may involve a lawyer or the press.

Sincerely,

Your signature
Your name, printed.

[jedimaster91]

Smiley, why did you join LDS? I seem to recall you saying something somewhere about how "they make you believe the church will solve your problems, no matter what they are." If that was indeed the case, then couldn't it be argued that the church let YOU down? They didn't fulfill the promise laid out to you by their missionaries/priesthood holders. Why are you being hassled and not the young men out there making promises on behalf of the church that they cannot keep?

That's a flaw in thinking both on the missionaries/priesthood holders part for promising it in that way, and prospective members who join based on that promise. No institution can solve anyone's personal problems. The idea is that the teachings and resources offered by the Church will help people solve their own problems should they choose to live their lives in accordance with the doctrines. And even if you don't accept the religious message, there are many temporal principles everyone would benefit from following (food/water storage, emergency cash, staying out of debt as much as possible, etc).

Regarding the letter, yes, removal of records should be handled by local leadership. So, yes, the Church was only following policy in that respect. However, I'm more than a little stumped as to why they're sending this to a different stake/ward. Unless maybe boundaries have changed in the year or so you haven't been active and your ward didn't realize you were in the other ward's boundaries. And it that case, they would be sending your records to the correct place. I know we just updated our records over the summer to see where people were and a few families ended up being out of our area. It happens. Obviously, somebody screwed up somewhere. Nobody's perfect, afterall. Good luck getting this straightened out.

[smileyeagle1021]

That's a flaw in thinking both on the missionaries/priesthood holders part for promising it in that way, and prospective members who join based on that promise. No institution can solve anyone's personal problems. The idea is that the teachings and resources offered by the Church will help people solve their own problems should they choose to live their lives in accordance with the doctrines.

Regarding the letter, yes, removal of records should be handled by local leadership. So, yes, the Church was only following policy in that respect. .

To the first part... yes, that was what they promised, if I followed the doctrine I would be able to solve my own problems... and that is exactly what happened... I overcame my problem of being uncomfortable with my sexuality.

To the second, wrong wrong wrong!
There is clear case law (specifically GUINN V THE CHURCH OF CHRIST OF COLLINSVILLE) that once any person requests for their membership to be removed they are no longer considered a member of the church. So it doesn't matter if it was sent to the right person (which btw, speaking of changing boundaries, makes Member Records the logical place to send it), it is whoever received the letters responsibility to forward it. In this regard, I do not have a problem with my request being forwarded to the local level. The problem is the whole idea that they are requiring the Bishop to contact me to "complete the process"... under US Law there is no more process... I'm done... the church has chosen to ignore that.

[Shangri-laschild]

speaking of... something I just learned and think is rather interesting...
a member who has been disfellowshipped but not excommunicated is still expected to pay tithing... umm... whiskey tango foxtrot... why would someone who is no longer in good standing have any desire to pay tithing?

I believe disfellowshipping means "you've been bad but since you are working at it, we'll just put you on a sort of probation type thing" though I could be wrong. I've only known people who were flat out excommunicated.

[RecoveringKinkoid]

So, what would happen if you just started going to services with a friend?
You know what I mean.