Terrorist Attack in Orlando

[Daskinor]

Can that be quoted as, "The NRA would like federal authorities to arrest people for making violent and racist comments!"?

Sorry your using an outdated translator. It goes more like;

"If we could stop just people with excessive amount of melanin in their skin and/or worship the wrong god from buying guns. Everything would be perfect."

[s_stabeler]

to be fair, I don't think that's the NRA's actual attitude. It's probably more likely to be an attempt to deflect attention from the fact that the NRA is part of the problem.(this is not to say that individual NRA members are part of the problem- it's the organisation's political activities that are the problem.) How? because the NRA oppose any new restrictions on buying firearms- and this is one tragedy that probably would have been prevented by greater restrictions on firearms.(and no, a CCW holder probably wouldn't have helped- close-quarters combat with noncombatants present is a nightmare for even professional soldiers. Had a CCW holder taken a shot at the madman, a) they would probably miss- potentially causing more people to get killed b) they would probably have made the panic worse- since bystanders would probably assume the CCW holder was another gunman. c) it would complicate figuring out who the actual gunman was if police respond. if armed police are responding to reports of an active shooter, and you are shooting someone with a gun, you are probably going to get shot. Even if you are a CCW holder trying to help out.)

Specifically, the NRA have resisted any effort to even plug the holes in existing restrictions- for instance, requiring a background check for all firearms sales.(for instance, how I would do it is that buying a firearm should require 3 things: 1. a background check. 2. a mental health check. 3. passing a course on 3 things. 1. when it is legal to use a firearm. 2. firearms safety- how to keep the gun secure- both in your house, and when you are actually carrying it. 3. shooting ability- that is, you should need to either take a course to teach you how to shoot accurately with the ting, or prove you can already shoot accurately with it.

[Greenday]

That depends. There are reports that he verbally and physically abused her. If he's an abusive husband, AND had an AR-15 assault rifle in his hand with ammo... I don't think she was in any position to say "No" to driving him.

The victim in an abusive relationship really has very little power, and even if you say "Well she could've called the police" - a lot display powerful paranoia that their abuser knows what they are doing at all times.

Not everything is so freaking black-and-white.

His first wife said he was abusive.

His second wife (the one who drove him) said he was never laid a hand on him.

[mjr]

Since there seems to be some big debate over whether or not the AR-15 is an "assault weapon" (a nebulous term that no one can seem to define clearly), think about this:

In this tragedy, this guy shot over 100 people. A Glock 17 is a 9mm, if I'm not mistaken. It has a clip that holds 17 rounds. Both the firearm and the clip are perfectly legal in the U.S. In fact, the 9mm is what most law enforcement in the U.S. uses, if I'm not mistaken. Does that make the Glock 17 an "assault weapon" or an "assault pistol"?

So what would have been the difference if this guy had brought a Glock 17 and six clips? 100 people would still have possibly been shot.

Then the discussion would be different, wouldn't it?

It wouldn't be about the AR-15.

[TheHuckster]

In this tragedy, this guy shot over 100 people. A Glock 17 is a 9mm, if I'm not mistaken. It has a clip that holds 17 rounds.

Unless you are Deadpool, you can't shoot 100 people as easily. Reloading, unlike what you see in the movies and video games, isn't something you can do in 1.5 seconds, and it does give people a far greater chance of either subduing the attacker or fleeing.

An AR-15 has a capacity of far more than 17 rounds without having to reload. Plus it has larger bullets which travel faster, making it more lethal than a Glock.

He probably would have been able to shoot and kill people at the nightclub, but not nearly as many people.

[mjr]

Unless you are Deadpool, you can't shoot 100 people as easily. Reloading, unlike what you see in the movies and video games, isn't something you can do in 1.5 seconds, and it does give people a far greater chance of either subduing the attacker or fleeing.

An AR-15 has a capacity of far more than 17 rounds without having to reload. Plus it has larger bullets which travel faster, making it more lethal than a Glock.

He probably would have been able to shoot and kill people at the nightclub, but not nearly as many people.

That's fair. But how many rounds does an AR-15 clip hold? I know it's a large round, but a 15 round AR-15 clip is going to look larger than a Glock clip.

But even so...the AR-15 is not a full auto. I think some people who haven't researched the weapon think that. You pull the trigger once for each round fired, like most firearms.

So the same basically applies to a handgun. So even if he showed up with a Glock 17 and had, say, three clips, that's still 51 rounds. That's still a LOT of people, which in this case would only change the argument from the AR-15 to "guns in general".

[TheHuckster]

That's fair. But how many rounds does an AR-15 clip hold? I know it's a large round, but a 15 round AR-15 clip is going to look larger than a Glock clip.

According to Wikipedia, 5-100 rounds.

So the same basically applies to a handgun. So even if he showed up with a Glock 17 and had, say, three clips, that's still 51 rounds. That's still a LOT of people, which in this case would only change the argument from the AR-15 to "guns in general".

And, again, in case you somehow failed to read my retort to that, the clip size makes a huge difference in how much you can fire in a given amount of time. If you have to reload every 10-15 shots, that's a helluvalot different than if you don't have to reload until you get to 100 shots.

[mjr]

And, again, in case you somehow failed to read my retort to that, the clip size makes a huge difference in how much you can fire in a given amount of time. If you have to reload every 10-15 shots, that's a helluvalot different than if you don't have to reload until you get to 100 shots.

Sure. I understand that. But we don't know how big the clip size was that he had.

We do know that there were periodic pauses while he was shooting. Depending on where/how he was standing, someone could have possibly taken him down from behind. He cased the place, however, and so he probably knew where to stand where he couldn't get approached from behind.

[Kheldarson]

Sure. I understand that. But we don't know how big the clip size was that he had.

We do know that there were periodic pauses while he was shooting. Depending on where/how he was standing, someone could have possibly taken him down from behind. He cased the place, however, and so he probably knew where to stand where he couldn't get approached from behind.

Speaking as someone who worked in a gun store, the average size magazine for a "modern sports rifle" is 20-45 rounds, with the most popular size being 30. You can, of course, get them in lower or higher capacity.

You can also get higher capacity magazines for most handguns, but those don't sell quite as much. Majority of people will keep the magazine that comes with the gun.

The big thing with the "sports rifle" is that they're designed to be modded, so there's no real standard that gets sold.

[s_stabeler]

a) unless there was someone trained in taking down an opponent, any takedown during reloading would mean someone using a weapon themselves. assuming another gun, you run into similar problems to if a CCW holder returned fire: 1) confusion over who the actual shooter is- a CCW holder returning fire could easily be mistaken for the actual gunman. 2) aim. As I pointed out before, in any situation when you aren't merely shooting at targets on a range, accuracy tends to go to pot. If you try to takedown the gunman and miss, you don't get to claim self-defense. ( as the law is written, if you shoot at someone in self-defense, miss, and kill a bystander, you can be convicted of the bystander's murder AFAIK)
b) the point is that a smaller clip size makes it easier for people to escape. unlike in movies or computer games, if you need to reload, it often takes a few seconds- which could be enough time for more possible targets to escape.
c) it's significantly easier to screw up reloading a gun than it is likely for the gun to jam.
d) as for are-15s compared to glocks, there's at least one Youtube video of a 30-cartridge mag in an AR-15 being emptied in half a second. the record for firing a glock iis 12 bullets in just under 3 seconds. hence, even if the Glock was fitted with an 100-round mag, it would take roughly 60 times longer to kill the same number of people with a glock as it would with an AR-15.

[TheHuckster]

as for are-15s compared to glocks, there's at least one Youtube video of a 30-cartridge mag in an AR-15 being emptied in half a second.

That has to be a fully automatic AR-15, though. No semi could do that, unless the shooter has Terminator-like fingers.

[AmbrosiaWriter]

His first wife said he was abusive.

His second wife (the one who drove him) said he was never laid a hand on him.

Where did you find that information?

His son said he was a very aggressive person, and I'm not finding any information about his current wife ever making a statement to that.

Because according to this:

http://nypost.com/2016/06/15/orlando...o-conspirator/

Chalal quoted Salman’s mom as saying Mateen didn’t allow her to drive after she joined him in Florida.

Chalal also said Mateen kept his wife from visiting her family and even tried to prevent her from traveling to comfort her dying father.

Sounds like the text book example of an abusive spouse.

Also according to this:

http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/15/us/orl...r-omar-mateen/

She didn't drive him there, just accompanied him to purchase the ammo (which is not an unusual purchase for him, considering he had concealed carry permit.)

If he didn't allow her to drive, might be that she didn't have a choice but to go with him to these places.

The official described Mateen as an "angry and violent man who in the last few weeks started watching ISIS videos."

A source said he was looking for any excuse to do something violent and he was a "boiling kettle."

[BlaqueKatt]

202 rounds from .223 SIG Sauer MCX semiautomatic rifle as well as a handgun (reportedly a 9mm Glock semiautomatic model).

The standard clip for the MCX is 30 round, higher capacity are legally for sale in florida.

[wolfie]

Since there seems to be some big debate over whether or not the AR-15 is an "assault weapon" (a nebulous term that no one can seem to define clearly),

But even so...the AR-15 is not a full auto. I think some people who haven't researched the weapon think that. You pull the trigger once for each round fired, like most firearms.

"Assault rifle" is a specific technical term, describing a rifle with a number of features, including that it fires a medium-power cartridge (5.56 NATO/.223 Winchester, used by the AR-15/M16 family, qualifies - a Browning Automatic Rifle doesn't qualify because it fires the full-power .30-06), and that it has selective fire (can be set to semiautomatic, or one of burst mode (M16A2) or full-auto (M16A1)). "Assault weapon" is a term used by politicians trying to scare people in order to justify banning certain classes of firearms ("Evil Black Rifle" - the same mechanism looks less scary when fitted with walnut "furniture" than when fitted with polymer "furniture").

That's fair. But how many rounds does an AR-15 clip hold?

Assuming the ammunition is packed in clips, rather than bare, I'd assume 5 rounds. Since magazines for modern rifles are generally a multiple of 5 rounds, this makes for convenience in loading the magazine from a (stripper) clip. If you're looking for a rifle that loads directly from a clip, you'd have to go back to the M1 Garand, which takes an 8 round (en bloc) clip.

If you're talking about a MAGAZINE for an AR-15, they vary in capacity. Most common are 20 and 30 round sizes, but there are some 100 round (a Rube Goldberg contraption with double drums) units out there.

An AR-15 has a capacity of far more than 17 rounds without having to reload. Plus it has larger bullets which travel faster, making it more lethal than a Glock.

5.56 mm is larger than 9 mm?

as for are-15s compared to glocks, there's at least one Youtube video of a 30-cartridge mag in an AR-15 being emptied in half a second. the record for firing a glock iis 12 bullets in just under 3 seconds. hence, even if the Glock was fitted with an 100-round mag, it would take roughly 60 times longer to kill the same number of people with a glock as it would with an AR-15.

30 rounds in half a second? That works out to a cyclic rate of fire of 3600 rounds/minute - well beyond the capabilities of a self-powered reciprocating automatic weapon (I believe the fastest was around 1200 rounds/minute) - you'd need a Gatling-type weapon to get that rate of (M61 is 6000 rounds/minute, GAU-8A is 4200, "minigun" which fires 5.56 mm NATO is around 10000).

With full auto (or even burst mode), you're no longer looking at one round per target. A 20 round magazine (from what I've heard, military prefers them to the 30 round due to more reliable feed - the higher the capacity, the more inertia in the column of rounds) would be good for 7 bursts (standard burst mode is 3 rounds) with one burst per target, while the semi-auto Glock has 13 rounds. Full auto in the hands of an untrained person (a.k.a. "spray and pray") is a great way to end up with an empty weapon while inflicting minimal casualties.

[Greenday]

Full auto in the hands of an untrained person (a.k.a. "spray and pray") is a great way to end up with an empty weapon while inflicting minimal casualties.

Which is why the military rarely fires it in full auto. It's not practical.