Unarmed man shot in miami by police

[Gravekeeper]

in essence, the ALM/BLM issue smacks of divide and conquer- both want to address the issue, but have allowed an artificial wedge to be driven between them.

ALM is the wedge.

[s_stabeler]

no it isn't. ALM is- as I have repeatedly pointed out- merely saying that dealing with the racism aspect wouldn't actually prevent the root cause, which is officers being too willing to shoot suspects.

the wedge is how it is portrayed as ALM v BLM, rather than ALM and BLM v people who think the police are right to shoot people on the barest suspicion the victim might shoot the officer.

To use another example, the Death Panels argument against single-payer healthcare. We have them already, actually- they're called insurance companies. Insurance companies set what they will pay for already, and there's no reason why someone couldn't pay for a treatment not covered under single-payer privately. If anything, it's an argument in favour of single-payer, since then, there will be accountability for the people making the decision.

[Gravekeeper]

no it isn't. ALM is- as I have repeatedly pointed out- merely saying that dealing with the racism aspect wouldn't actually prevent the root cause, which is officers being too willing to shoot suspects.

the wedge is how it is portrayed as ALM v BLM, rather than ALM and BLM v people who think the police are right to shoot people on the barest suspicion the victim might shoot the officer.

No. Again, ALM was specifically created as a counter to BLM. Not an alternative or a differing opinion. Its a counter and rejection. Its not a well reasoned and equally valid position. It is not "merely" saying anything aside from "I'm either an idiot or a racist whether I realize it or not".

There is no wedge being "portrayed". ALM is the wedge. ALM is what's chanted in rejection at BLM protesters. Its whats chanted at someone with a BLM t-shirt as he's beaten and dragged out of a Trump rally by security. Its whats used by bobble heads on tv to once again refocus discussion on white people's feelings.

Even farking Glenn Beck is starting to understand this.

[TheHuckster]

No. Again, ALM was specifically created as a counter to BLM. Not an alternative or a differing opinion. Its a counter and rejection. Its not a well reasoned and equally valid position. It is not "merely" saying anything aside from "I'm either an idiot or a racist whether I realize it or not".

Can you cite this? Do you know who coined the #AllLivesMatter tag, and whether that person's motive was to say outright that black lives do not matter and had racist reasons, rather than the more moderate viewpoint that s_stabeler and I have been stating?

Yes, people have taken the ALM mantra and used it for a racist agenda. Nobody is denying that. Just as some people have taken BLM to truly mean "only black lives matter and let's kill the police." But if the vast majority of people who use these slogans are "good" people who are honestly trying to fix a very serious problem, then demonizing them for interpreting a slogan as with well-meaning motivations is counterproductive and futhermore gives the truly racist branch of the ALM movement validation.

In other words, by lumping the majority of people in ALM who aren't racist with the minority who are, you're effectively fueling the racial divide by insinuating that those majority people are bigots who chose the wrong slogan. And so, they're unfairly tarred and feathered for daring to say, "Hey, maybe we should also talk a little bit about people executing police officers or police officers who are oppressing other people"

[Gravekeeper]

Seriously, what is wrong with you two? How can you look at the proponents of ALM and say "Oh, this is a moderate, reasonable response to BLM"? Let alone that the moderates are the silent majority of it. Bullshit. ALM exists as a counter argument to BLM. That is how it began, that is how it is used. Like many terrible ideas it emerged from the bowels of twitter following the emergence of BLM.

ALM would not exist without BLM and it should not be used as a response to ALM. No one was saying ALM until BLM. If you actually need me to explain to you why ALM is so problematic you haven't been paying attention for the past 2 years.

In other words, by lumping the majority of people in ALM who aren't racist with the minority who are, you're effectively fueling the racial divide by insinuating that those majority people are bigots who chose the wrong slogan.

Bullshit. Don't pull the reverse racism argument. If everyone from Time magazine to god damn Glenn Beck is telling you ALM is bad then you're choosing to continue to use it. Along with all of the negative connotations it entails.

And so, they're unfairly tarred and feathered for daring to say, "Hey, maybe we should also talk a little bit about people executing police officers or police officers who are oppressing other people"

Do you need more bloody web comics to get the problem here?

I have spend the last year arguing with assholes, racists, fucking nazis ( yes, literal neo nazis. They fucking love it. ), Trump supporters ( who often times are all of the above ) etc on internet forums about BLM and ALM. I am god damn sick of it and its proponents. I'm honestly disappointed its even an argument here on Fratching.

You may as well be complaining that white people don't get a history month or why don't straight people get pride parades or that it's really about ethics in gaming journalism. You're missing the entire fucking point and then wondering why everyone is upset with you.

[TheHuckster]

Seriously, what is wrong with you two? How can you look at the proponents of ALM and say "Oh, this is a moderate, reasonable response to BLM"?

If you read the bottom of the barrel of internet memes and news website comments, then yes, you're going to get the impression that nobody in ALM is reasonable. I'm talking about reality, which those comments reflect none of. I'm talking about my own friends, family, and acquaintances who aren't bigots or idiots who take a moderate view. Some ally with the ALM banner, others with BLM, but overall, they discuss the topic with a lot more civility and calmness than here, where you call anyone who subscribes to ALM as "idiots."

ALM would not exist without BLM and it should not be used as a response to ALM. No one was saying ALM until BLM. If you actually need me to explain to you why ALM is so problematic you haven't been paying attention for the past 2 years.

People haven't said the slogan ALM, but people have had the moderate ALM sentiment for decades, using different mantras, such as "give peace a chance."

Bullshit. Don't pull the reverse racism argument. If everyone from Time magazine to god damn Glenn Beck is telling you ALM is bad then you're choosing to continue to use it. Along with all of the negative connotations it entails.

I prefer to think for myself and not let a tabloidy magazine and a talking head tell me what to think.

I have spend the last year arguing with assholes, racists, fucking nazis ( yes, literal neo nazis. They fucking love it. ), Trump supporters ( who often times are all of the above ) etc on internet forums about BLM and ALM. I am god damn sick of it and its proponents.

I've debated the issues elsewhere as well. I've come to a different conclusion than you have. You seem to have taken the worst of ALM and ignored all of the reasonable people from it. This is either because you're choosing the shittiest discussion forums to make such arguments or you've got blinders on and choose only to pay attention to the assholes.

In my experiences, I've observed the following:

a.) The vast majority of both BLM and ALM are decent, reasonable people who, overall, have the same goals. They condemn police brutality, and the enabling of brutality, and they also condemn violence against police officers.

b.) Within these reasonable people are those who have a distorted vision of the other side, with ALM under the incorrect perception that BLM are full of terrorists who want to kill cops and white people, and BLM under the incorrect perception that ALM are full of neo-nazi's and white supremacists.

c.) When debating the issues, often on large unmoderated forums, the extremists from either side steal the show and egg the other side on to give this incorrect perception of either side. Those who condemn a case of brutality are met with the extreme ALM crowd saying the victim was asking for it by raising his arms too fast or whatever other bullshit reason they can think of to justify it, and those who condemn violence against police officers are met with the extreme BLM crowd saying violence against police officers are justified, OR that they really shouldn't care about killed police officers at all.

I'm honestly disappointed its even an argument here on Fratching.

As much as I disagree with you on this matter and how strong and sometimes inflammatory your words have been regarding this whole discussion, it's still a helluvalot better than the absolutely ridiculous arguments I see elsewhere.

By the way, I'm still waiting for your citation as to who coined the #AllLivesMatter tag with racist connontations, rather than merely a plea to think of other victims of violence, including police officers which had later been attempted to be hijacked by racists who use it for their own white supremacist agenda.

[KabeRinnaul]

ALM is the Kanye West to BLM's Taylor Swift. Even if it's not trying to be deliberately offensive, it's still ignorant.

BLM came into being to call attention to problems that disproportionately affect African Americans. ALM stepped up and said "I'm gonna let you finish, but you need to talk about my problems too."

Kind of like how LGBT people are the subject of discrimination, abuse, and slander in ways that straight people aren't, but hey straight people have pride too.

Or how women are subjected to more severe harassment than men online, objectified in public, and have their thoughts and experiences dismissed, but hey life is unfair for men too.

If you respond to LGBT rights with "well what about straight people" or feminism with "well what about men", you're being an asshole. If you respond to BLM with "well what about non-blacks", then well...

[TheHuckster]

In the case of feminist issues, there are cases where gender prejudice and bigotry can cause horrible problems for men, such as the case that happened to someone I know recently who was denied a position as a teacher by a parent group based solely on the fact that "men sometimes molest children." Now, if someone decides to form a group or movement trying to address this problem to try and dissuade the unfair stereotype that men in teaching positions tend toward being sexual deviants, are you suggesting that make them anti-feminist? And I'm not talking about groups like Meninist or MRM, which are clearly rampant with complete asshats who went off the deep end, but a more moderate movement, like, "Stop calling males in child-related jobs perverts".

I see the moderate section of ALM as being the same idea (as opposed to what some people here are claiming are the racist-counterpart to something like MRM). There are clearly race-baited problems with police oppression, but there are also cases of police oppression that is more general, in the sense that police often have a power trip over all civilians, as well as there being a problem with police officers being killed as a response to their colleagues' transgressions. The moderates of the ALM group are trying to include those cases in along with the BLM problems we're having.

[KabeRinnaul]

In the case of feminist issues, there are cases where gender prejudice and bigotry can cause horrible problems for men, such as the case that happened to someone I know recently who was denied a position as a teacher by a parent group based solely on the fact that "men sometimes molest children." Now, if someone decides to form a group or movement trying to address this problem to try and dissuade the unfair stereotype that men in teaching positions tend toward being sexual deviants, are you suggesting that make them anti-feminist?

Off-topic, that is actually itself a feminist issue, because it derives from the sexist ideas that men must be sexual but women must not, and that women are nurturers but men are not.

On-topic, no, it's not anti-feminist, though it could become so if they saw it not as an aspect of feminism, but instead as evidence of institutional misandry and believed that set them against their female oppressors (and argument I have had a distressing number of times, as some parts of the brony community can get pretty toxic).

But that's not quite like ALM.

Do you bring this anecdote up every time feminism is mentioned? Do you use it to bring attention off of a marginalized class and return it to your own? Do you use it to dismiss the problems faced by women and reframe the discussion to be about problems that affect men too?

Then you're using it the way ALM is used. And yes, that would make you anti-feminist.

[TheHuckster]

Do you bring this anecdote up every time feminism is mentioned? Do you use it to bring attention off of a marginalized class and return it to your own? Do you use it to dismiss the problems faced by women and reframe the discussion to be about problems that affect men too?

Then you're using it the way ALM is used. And yes, that would make you anti-feminist.

I will concede that a lot of people from ALM can get overly passionate about objecting to BLM every time they hear those words uttered. In the circle of people I know which I mentioned earlier who bring up ALM it's usually not a direct response to BLM but rather a response to other news of violence which they feel are being pushed aside because it doesn't fit with the BLM movement. Any direct response they'd make to BLM would typically be towards one from the extreme group who celebrates an officer's murder.

This same circle also use the ALM tag for each case of racist police brutality they bring up. It's for this reason I have been a bit steadfast in defending that group of people, who I feel are unfairly lumped in with the extreme group who use the slogan for hate.

The fact of the matter is I think everyone here can agree that we've been having a growing violence problem, with attacks by people of all kinds, upon people of all kinds, and if you want to focus on a certain aspect of this problem, be it racist police oppression via BLM, that's perfectly fine. But if someone else wishes to bring about a different perspective on the problem that is either more encompassing or about another aspect, as long as they aren't condemning or retorting against the other, just as valid, movements, that's also perfectly fine.

This issue, like so many others, just gets polarized to the point where people in these discussions say something like "everyone in ALM are either racists or idiots" which drives me nuts.

[Canarr]

I have spend the last year arguing with assholes, racists, fucking nazis ( yes, literal neo nazis. They fucking love it. ), Trump supporters ( who often times are all of the above ) etc on internet forums about BLM and ALM. I am god damn sick of it and its proponents. I'm honestly disappointed its even an argument here on Fratching.

Well, if you don't want to repeat (or copy & paste) these discussions here, I'd still appreciate a link so I could read up on them. Admittedly, I know next to nothing about ALM (it's not really a topic in Germany).

Do you bring this anecdote up every time feminism is mentioned? Do you use it to bring attention off of a marginalized class and return it to your own? Do you use it to dismiss the problems faced by women and reframe the discussion to be about problems that affect men too?

Then you're using it the way ALM is used. And yes, that would make you anti-feminist.

Women are not a "marginalized class" in western democracies. Certainly not when compared to LGBTQ+ and black people in the US.

And: being anti-feminist is not necessarily a bad thing. Some (self-proclaimed) feminist are serious assholes, and they need someone to be "anti-them".

[KabeRinnaul]

Women are not a "marginalized class" in western democracies. Certainly not when compared to LGBTQ+ and black people in the US.

Race and sexual orientation issues are more severe, and on paper, men and women are equals — usually. Reproductive rights are still a major issue in many parts of the country, and one of the most regressive politicians in the entire nation on that subject is currently in the running for Vice President.

But the bigger problem isn't with laws, it's with society. Socially, we have a long way to go.

And: being anti-feminist is not necessarily a bad thing. Some (self-proclaimed) feminist are serious assholes, and they need someone to be "anti-them".

Feminism is not misandry. Misandry undermines feminism. Too many men encounter misandry, and attack the entire concept of feminism in turn because they equate the two. Or worse (and frankly, likely more often), men have their expected and normalized privilege confronted by feminism and, because the norm has been broken, believe that THIS is misandry and resent it.

I know there are plenty of (current or former) service workers here who have encountered the workplace version of that one: "But they always let me do it before!"

[s_stabeler]

I have been thinking how to respond to what Gravekeeper said for a few days- partly because I was so outraged at his insults that it took me a few days to come up with a response that did not include a personal attack on Gravekeeper.

There are, in essence, 2 forms of ALM. there is the more extreme- and possibly earlier- ALM, which indeed was an attempt by the bigots to drive a wedge between people opposed to how the police have been acting. However, there is another form of ALM- those people who agree that the police are acting unreasonably, but think that the racism angle is the wrong approach to focus on, since it is not (just) a racism issue as much as an issue of police using excessive force.

essentially, it's bigots + extreme ALM v BLM and moderate ALM. The wedge I was describing was between BLM and the moderate ALM, and is the extreme ALM. yes, ALM may well have started as opposition to BLM, but that doesn't mean it still is. ( to use a similar example: sinn fein in Ireland used to be opposed to NI being part of the UK at all, but now supports the peace process as an advocate for NI being de facto independent from the UK. ALM may have started as opposition to BLM, but it isn't entirely that any more. Gravekeeper's unfortunate in that regard, since they have primarily come across those that are in the bigoted wing of ALM.)

It's sort of like that SGA member who was unfairly dismissed a couple weeks ago: she wasn't actually trying to be racist, just point out that she thought BLM was ignoring part of the problem. That doesn't make her racist. ( as for if it means she should lose her job: that's up to the SGA, but they should have followed their own procedures. If nothing else, it's kinda dangerous to establish the principle that laws can be ignored for ere inconvenience. I hope none of that SGA end up with a political career, as would they decide the Constitution can be ignored as easily as they ignored the rules for removing their VP?)

[Kheldarson]

So in the continuing discussion of BLM vs. ALM vs. WLM, we now have a protest rally in front of the NAACP headquarters in Houston by white folks with guns, body armor, and the Confederate flag:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...houston-naacp/

[TheHuckster]

So in the continuing discussion of BLM vs. ALM vs. WLM, we now have a protest rally in front of the NAACP headquarters in Houston by white folks with guns, body armor, and the Confederate flag:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...houston-naacp/

I don't think anyone has defended WLM in this whole discussion. That's one group that has totally defined themselves as bigots.