Racist or Not?

[unholypet]

Late chiming in...

Out of curiosity, I went on their Facebook page. Read their links, read their supportive words, and even looked around my own town the next day, for black business owners.

I found two (living in a small town makes it hard to find ANYTHING), and was warmly greeted in one like the lady behind the counter has known me all my life, and was looked at strangely in the other, with the women working never making eye contact until the change was returned with a sneer. I bought some eggs in the first farmer store, and some neat little hairpins the second weave store. Yeah, strange for a white girl to be in a weave store (or at least it is here), but the women made me feel like I didn't belong.

That night, I went back to the Facebook and asked to join with a message, which read:

I really like the two stores nearby, even if one's workers made me feel uncomfortable (they had fabulous hair accessories I've never seen!). I'd like to join you group and show support for the stores, and leave some local map instructions for anyone else who wants to visit them, thanks!


Denied membership! I really was expecting to get denied, but they obviously don't need my support =p

Is that racist of them? Because I'm white I can't join?

EDIT: I went back and posted the above after I rejoined, and mailed the admins asking if I can stay joined.

[Wingates_Hellsing]

The dividing line for me is that judging on color is pointless, as that has more or less nothing neccissarily to do with culture anymore. Nationality, when taken beyond the point of 'What kind of culture do they have?' is equally stupid since plenty of untraditional people live everywhere.

Judging on culture is okay with me so long as you don't take it past what it is. Don't assume everything about someone going in because they are Italian, German, American etc. but keep in mind what kind of world they may live in and what kinds of people they might live around.

Meanwhile we have the ever increasing sense of culture being independant of everything except interests:

Bikers, gamers, sky divers, paintballers, hunters, film students, military enthusiests, furries, and countless others are starting to associate more with each other than with people who just happen to also be from Virginia, or Sweden, who may have grown up to be short, or whose skin has as much pigment.

[Slytovhand]

Unholy, did they give you a reason for denying you?

And did I read you correctly that you re-applied, and were then accepted? Or what??

But yes, that would, I think, certainly be racists. I mean, supporting one group over another (whether 'legitimately' or not, as Wingates pointed out) is one thing, but that's different to accepting people or not - in general situations. (I can see specific situations...).

It would also be rather foolish of them.... there is a fair amount of publicity surrounding this - turning someone down based on race isn't going to get them any browny points, and may lead to crap hitting their fan! (of course, they can always counter with "But that's what happens to us, and happened legally for a couple of centuries".... which is countered with "Great - so grow up, get with the times, and don't do back what was done to you - revenge of that sort just isn't needed!")

[MystyGlyttyr]

I just don't understand how this works because I don't understand what they mean by "black" businesses. I still don't quite grasp the concept of race. When I was younger I just thought it was an indicator of what particular shade of tan your skin was. Then it's what country you're from. Then it's what culture you're from. Then it's fuck I don't know I give up.

I mean, if I look at a person and see that they are substantially darker than most other people I've seen, then I assume they're probably black. If I find out later that they're actually Arab or just hitting the bronzer too hard, well...whatever. It's all just a collection of chromosomes and skin chemicals anyway.

How are they defining a black business exactly? Is it purely that the owner has to be black, even if all the employees are something else? Is it that the majority of the employees are black? I mean, if you have two offices, one owned by a black person but with 20 white employees, and one owned by a white person with 20 black employees, which one is the black business?

But then again, I completely misunderstood the controversy a while back about the labels of Master/Slave terminals in computers because I spent almost a year thinking that whole thing was because someone got too sensitive about BDSM...so I guess we have to consider the source.

[Slytovhand]

OT, but still... Mysty reminds me of when they changed that from Master/Slave drives, to Main and secondary (and Mainboards from Motherboards...). What's really silly about it, is effectively that's the type of relationship those 2 drives have!


On topic... humans still feel the need to identify with others. ("Yes, we are all individuals". "I'm not")

[Flyndaran]

I... I still don't quite grasp the concept of race. ....

That's because it doesn't really exist. It's a purely social construct and humanity's need to label.
Genetically there is more difference between two dark africans, than between either one of them and a white guy.
Genetically, middle eastern jews and arabs are indistinguishable.

[DesignFox]

<snip> I still don't quite grasp the concept of race. <snip>

More power to you. If more of us thought this way, we'd have a few less problems in society.

Actually, re-reading this, it reminded me of when I was a kid and I didn't understand the concept of "race" either. But, I've always been fairly innocent, one could almost say, too trusting and gullible when it all comes down to it. I never thought badly of anyone for any reason- unless they directly were mean to me.

Working with the public has slapped all that out of me. (although I do acknowledge my various prejudices and do my best to ignore them or disprove them to myself or at the very least not verbalize them)

*sigh*

If people at least didn't act on their prejudices things would be a step in the right direction.

[anriana]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/lizhenr...7612897466679/

Top right.

[daleduke17]

More power to you. If more of us thought this way, we'd have a few less problems in society.

I think like that, but I had holy hell raised at me this past November by doing that. It was because I was thinking like that and NOT making a big deal about race.

So, damned if you do....damned if you don't.

[unholypet]

Unholy, did they give you a reason for denying you?

And did I read you correctly that you re-applied, and were then accepted? Or what??

Yeah, they did re-accept me, and then kicked me out AGAIN last week. No mails or notices, and I sent another questioning message via Facebook.

[thelong1]

Wow, this is certainly an interesting thread and people really have a lot of insightful, intelligent things to say about it. I think everyone agrees that its discrimination at least, but isn't racism just a form of discrimination? What is the difference between prejudice, racism, and discrimination? Scale?

[DesignFox]

Wow, this is certainly an interesting thread and people really have a lot of insightful, intelligent things to say about it. I think everyone agrees that its discrimination at least, but isn't racism just a form of discrimination? What is the difference between prejudice, racism, and discrimination? Scale?

Interesting question. I'm not going to go with the textbook definitions. I'm going to go with what each of those things means to me.

Prejudice- a mild form of well..pre-judgement. It means that I've made up my mind about the person without even talking to them. Just on a glance I think I know what I need to and (although I really really make an effort NOT to) I may act accordingly.

This often happens in my sales job. Because not being able to make a split second decision about someone CAN cost me more than it earns me. (and yes, sometimes I'm WRONG. either in a way that benefits me, or hurts me)

Racism- to me, is judging someone based solely on the color of their skin or their religion. It can go hand in hand with prejudice, but to me is more extreme because you aren't taking in any other information- just the fact that their skin tone is lighter or darker, or that they worship a different ideal of "god" than you.

To me, someone can be prejudiced without being a racist.

As for discrimination- this is an outright action based on prejudice or racism. Without any other information other than that which is presented on first meeting you are acting in a certain manner towards another person. It doesn't necessarily have to be a "bad" thing, but it certainly can be.

Everyone deserves a chance. I think we all can agree. But there are certain situations where one can't necessarily be blamed for taking a first glance and saying, "aw hell no." (i.e. reports of a bad neighborhood, so not going around there alone at night...or seeing someone with a shirt that has a derogatory slogan and so not talking to them because you don't agree, etc.)

To me, what these people are doing is racist, because they are flat out refusing to do things based on the color of another person's skin.

I'll use my own example of a personal prejudice that I have. I am a woman. And when I go to the OBGYN, I prefer to see a woman. I'm sorry. Personally, I feel that if you're gonna poke around my girly-bits, you outta have a set of your own or else you can't really be sympathetic.

Now. If I got sick, and there were absolutely ZERO female OBGYN doctors or certified nurse mid-wives, I wouldn't REFUSE to see a male. I mean, obviously, he had to go to med-school. He must know his shit or else he wouldn't have that DM after his name.

But given a choice, I see a woman.

The people in the OP? Well, the guy refuses to go to the doctor because he can only see a white doctor.

The woman won't buy another earring for her poor baby girl because no jewelers in the area are black.

They aren't making a decision based on a preference. They are flat-out refusing to care for themselves just because the only people that can help them are white.

THAT'S the difference to me.

[Wingates_Hellsing]

DesignFox.. all I have to say is: YES!!

But in addition to that, and I'm not directing this at anyone, but it's important to remember that while race has no scientific basis, it does have a social basis in that there are people of every 'ethnic background' that choose to perpetuate the racial divide.

If you want to help make the world 'colorblind'? All you have to do is BE what you WANT... be an example and encourage others to follow suit.

[thelong1]

DesignFox...well said. I thought that "As for discrimination- this is an outright action based on prejudice or racism." was also a great concept. I think you're right. People can have racist thoughts about someone but it doesn't seem like you can have really discriminatory thoughts. "I think I'm not going to let them rent that apartment because they are (race/gender/age/religion/sexual orientation)". I think the action part is the key difference. Its not really discrimination if it doesn't happen, but it can be racist or prejudicial behavior without having an action or having to happen.

[Flyndaran]

Yeah, they did re-accept me, and then kicked me out AGAIN last week. No mails or notices, and I sent another questioning message via Facebook.

And right they were. They could have caught teh white!