Abortion Rights for Fathers?

[DesignFox]

<snip> But all these insinuations that fathers have no connections with their unborn children are really getting under my skin. I guess that's why I made the snide remarks I made earlier.

I don't think a single woman that posted in this thread said those words.

Considering my own response to Pedersen's situation, I take extreme offense to your comments. I suggest you go back and read between the lines.

The only point I was making is that a woman is not only emotionally invested in carrying a baby to term, but also extremely physically invested. And while a guy can hide his involvement, a woman has no choice but to wear it on her body.

So, while I strongly believe the decision should be a joint one (and as I've stated before, in a truly committed relationship it will be) since the woman has to undergo the physical trauma and stress and suffer the social stigmas that come along with being knocked up... sorry- she's got the bigger say.

That being said, I'm glad that you do take a vested interest in the well being of your future partner and children. That's very admirable.

[guywithashovel]

I don't think a single woman that posted in this thread said those words.

Considering my own response to Pedersen's situation, I take extreme offense to your comments. I suggest you go back and read between the lines.

The only point I was making is that a woman is not only emotionally invested in carrying a baby to term, but also extremely physically invested. And while a guy can hide his involvement, a woman has no choice but to wear it on her body.

So, while I strongly believe the decision should be a joint one (and as I've stated before, in a truly committed relationship it will be) since the woman has to undergo the physical trauma and stress and suffer the social stigmas that come along with being knocked up... sorry- she's got the bigger say.

That being said, I'm glad that you do take a vested interest in the well being of your future partner and children. That's very admirable.

Looking back, I'll say that I shouldn't have loaded my last post up with so much bile. It's just that I got pretty worked up over what I thought was being said (and what I still think was being said by some), especially considering what my family has been through lately.

And actually, when it's all said and done, I would probably agree that in a situation where the two people are not married, but the girl ends up getting pregnant, that she would probably end up with the bigger say. But where that line should be drawn is tricky.

I probably will check back, but I'm probably going to try to leave this thread alone for now. It's really getting to me. Sorry for the offense.

EDIT: I just went back and deleted my offensive post. I apologize again for letting my emotions get out of control.

[Pedersen]

One thing further has been bothering me about this thread.

Male options for contraception are exceedingly limited in comparison to female options. What if we adjust the situation a bit, and explore those options for a minute?

Men can abstain, use condoms, or get a vasectomy. What if the guy decides he really does not want children? What if he decides "It's my body, I'm getting a vasectomy", and does not consult with anybody other than his doctor?

How do people feel about that?

[telecom_goddess]

One thing further has been bothering me about this thread.

Male options for contraception are exceedingly limited in comparison to female options. What if we adjust the situation a bit, and explore those options for a minute?

Men can abstain, use condoms, or get a vasectomy. What if the guy decides he really does not want children? What if he decides "It's my body, I'm getting a vasectomy", and does not consult with anybody other than his doctor?

How do people feel about that?

Well I guess that depends. If he's single then he has no one else to answer to BUT he should disclose that information early on in a relationship. If he's already in a relationship then I think it should be discussed first....although I guess he should have the final decision since it IS his body and all.

[AdminAssistant]

What if he decides "It's my body, I'm getting a vasectomy", and does not consult with anybody other than his doctor?

I have zero problem with that. His body, his decision. If he's single, he should mention it decently early on in a relationship. If he's in a relationship, it would be ideal if he discussed the matter with his significant other.

I seem to remember a discussion of a male birth control pill, and people were arguing against it, saying that men - particularly in their teens and twenties - would not be responsible enough to take a pill everyday. I think that's BS, myself.

[Greenday]

I seem to remember a discussion of a male birth control pill, and people were arguing against it, saying that men - particularly in their teens and twenties - would not be responsible enough to take a pill everyday. I think that's BS, myself.

LOL cause all women are? That makes sense. For both sexes, there will always be people who take meds correctly, and those who are irresponsible.

[DesignFox]

<snip> What if the guy decides he really does not want children? What if he decides "It's my body, I'm getting a vasectomy", and does not consult with anybody other than his doctor?

How do people feel about that?

I feel that it's his body, so that's his decision.

If the guy really doesn't want kids, he should make that known to his partner- especially if he's undergone the vasectomy.

Just like women should disclose their thoughts on reproducing, so too should the guys.

If I was unable to bear children for any reason- by choice or not- I would feel very strongly about letting my partner know. I wouldn't want to get into a committed relationship, only for my partner to really really want his own kids and then find out I'm unwilling or incapable of bearing them.

[Boozy]

How do people feel about that?

That's fine with me.

In fact, if a man is that certain he doesn't want kids, it's the most responsible thing to do. In my opinion, he doesn't have to consult anyone, even if he's married. He needs to inform his wife that there will be no children in their future, and let her decide if she wants to stay with him. But there's no need for any "negotiations". A child shouldn't be brought into the world just because one partner nagged the other into submission.

[tabbyblack13]

I personally believe that everyone has a right to control there reproductive systems. If a man wishes never to have children then a little snip in the nether regions should be an option. The same for women too. It doesn't matter the age of the person, it should be open for all.

As for abortion rights for the fathers. I don't want to cruel but the fathers need to stay out of it. Abortion is a very important choice for a woman and the fathers need to understand that it isn't easy. Women have abortions for many reasons.

If the father didn't want the child he will still have to pay if she chose to have the child. He should have the option to pay less if he decides to wave his parental rights.

[AFPheonix]

I actually think that abortion should not even be an option. You don't want a child, give it up for adoption.

Not even when you find out you're going to give birth to this?
How about this?

I wouldn't make a woman bear something into the world that's going to pretty much die right away, why would you? There's many reasons for abortion in this world, not just because a gal doesn't feel like getting saggy tits.

No, I don't think the father should stay out of the discussion, either. If it is the product of an abuse situation than sure, he can go stuff himself. But normal relations, the father is allowed to have his opinion, he's allowed to express it to his mate. He is, after all, part of the whole thing so he's allowed to put his oar in too.

[Lace Neil Singer]

Being forced to carry a child and give birth must be terribly traumatic, both physically and mentally; almost in a way akin to being forced to have sex. It's a very rare woman who wouldn't be affected at all at being denied her right to not have a child that she doesn't want. That kind of view is heading backwards to a more intolerant time, and shouldn't be around today.

[DesignFox]

I encourage everyone who has an opinion on abortion to read The Cider House Rules.

Don't cheat and watch the movie. That waste of celluloid misses the point of the novel entirely.

The book is not for the faint of heart, but, aside from being a really good story, it makes you think twice about a lot of things in life.

[AdminAssistant]

I'd also recommend Keely and Du a play by "Jane Martin" (well known to be a pen name, but not know who it actually is). It's a very powerful piece on abortion.

[Seshat]

Men can abstain, use condoms, or get a vasectomy. What if the guy decides he really does not want children? What if he decides "It's my body, I'm getting a vasectomy", and does not consult with anybody other than his doctor?

How do people feel about that?

Fine with me. Ditto for a woman getting sterilised. I think either should be able to do so freely.

As I've said in abortion threads, in my ideal world, contraception is reliable, reversible, harmless and cheap. And available to both genders. Parents have the option (and IMO, strong recommendation) to get their kids contraception circa puberty, and people get it reversed when both parties agree they want to have kids.

This sort of world would make the whole abortion issue almost moot. The two major reasons for abortion in this world would be medical issues, and rape during the time someone was fertile.



But we don't have that perfect, fair world. And in this imperfect world, I think a person should have the right to choose not to carry a baby. See any of the abortion threads for the list of complications of a normal pregnancy. Some are horrific!
I also think that in this imperfect world, a person shouldn't be forced to have elective surgery done on his/her body.

I chose gender-neutral terms for that because it is a gender-neutral thing for me. Noone should be forced to face the complications of pregnancy, nor of elective surgery.
Sheer physical practicality denies fathers the same rights as mothers. And I'm sorry about that.

However, I do believe that the decision about keeping the baby or not should be made by the couple, in cooperation with their moral advisor/s of choice, and their medical advisor/s of choice. Only if the couple are unable to come to an agreement, should the mother's choice override the father's. And they and their advisor/s should do everything they can to come to an agreement.


Since fathers don't have the same rights, I think something should be doable to try to find a compromise position.

If the final decision is abortion, the father should help fund it, and help the mother through the physical aspects of it. And both should be offered counselling support. Equal counselling support - as has been pointed out, the father may have wanted to have the kid!

If the final decision is adoption, the father should help the mother through the pregnancy and its aftermath, and both - again - should have counselling support. And if the mother gets a pregnancy-caused problem, the father should help the mother through that as well.
This help may be financial, especially if the pregnancy or its complications renders the mother unable to work. It should certainly be physical, pregnancy can be bloody hard on a woman's body. And both should have emotional support, from each other and from the community.

If the final decision of one parent is adoption and the other parent wants to keep the child, the parent who wishes to keep the child should be allowed to (presuming there's no history of abuse, neglect etc). The parent who chose to adopt the child out forgoes all rights & responsibilities.
The other becomes a sole parent - and freely chooses to do so, knowing the situation.


.... and you know, that just clarified to me what the obligation should be of a father who wants the child aborted, when the mother doesn't. Why should his obligation be any greater than that of a parent who chooses to give their child up for adoption?
So again. Support during the pregnancy and for pregnancy complications. And then he signs over his rights to the child just as he would if he were adopting the kid out.
Yes, this gives him more responsibility than a woman has if she chooses the elective surgery of an abortion. But I think this is probably fair - a woman having an abortion has the risk of surgery complications. The man helping a woman through a pregnancy has a nine-months-or-so commitment.
I think that's as fair as biology is going to let us make it.

[Peppergirl]

Forgive me if this has already been posted, but I find it EXTREMELY ironic that women supposedly 'have control of their own bodies', but the VAST majority of them who consult a doctor about sterilization before the age of 30, are given a whole load of BULLSHIT about it by doctors.

But let a guy in his 20s, even VERY EARLY 20s, decide to get a vascectomy - no FUCKING PROBLEM in most cases. Makes me sick.

Sharing an EXTREMELY personal story:

Some of you know I have two boys. I am 40 and my boys are 22 and almost 19. I had them VERY young, obviously. I was married for nearly 15 years to the father of my second child. He is 2 years older than me.

When I was about 23 or 24, I became pregnant again. My kids were 6 and 4 and I was not happy because I knew I didn't want anymore. I could barely handle the two I had! For the record, I *was* using birth control with both my second and third pregnancies.

I was waffling, going back and forth on the issue of abortion. My now ex-husband didn't want anymore kids either, so we were really struggling with the decision.

Ultimately, the decision was made by someone other than us. I suffered a miscarriage in my second month. I was secretly relieved, because the decision had been taken care of. Sounds cold, but I knew I wasnt ready for more.

After I healed, I consulted my doctor about getting my tubes tied. I was 23 or 24 at the time, married with TWO kids and I knew I didn't want any more children. He refused...yes FUCKING REFUSED to do it, based upon my age!!

Yes, I switched doctors. Ultimately, it was easier to just have my ex husband (who was 25 or 26 at the time) get a vascectomy. No questions asked, of course.

Granted, this was in the early to mid 90s, but I'm appalled to see that apparently the double standard regarding sterilization is STILL alive and well by some physicians.