Abortion Rights for Fathers?

[AdminAssistant]

Greenday brought this up in another thread.

Let's say we've got an unmarried couple, who have unprotected sex, and pregnancy results. The father has zero say in whether or not the mother chooses to keep the child or terminate the pregnancy.

I absolutely 100% agree with this. There are situations when a woman might be forced to become pregnant, but not want to be. There are rape and incest cases where the woman would be otherwise forced to carry the child to term (this is why I'm against parental notification).

Besides, at that point, (speaking as a woman) this is MY body and only I get to decide what happens to it. Giving the father of the embryo rights harkens back to the days when women were men's property.

[McDreidel09]

I believe it is the woman's choice. If they want to talk it over with their partner, then they should be able to. Forcing a woman to get consent from the father of the child is not right IMHO. In some cases, the woman does not know who the father is. Some were raped by someone they didn't know, or they don't want to tell the father of the baby about it.

Personally, I would not get an abortion, but I don't care if someone else does. That's not my business.

[Slytovhand]

Continuing the argument then, if there was a previous agreement about no kids, and she gets pregnant (even 1 in a million chance sort of thing... all precautions taken - except for, you know, not actually having the sex in the first place!), and he wants one thing, and she wants another... in this case, she wants to keep the child.

So - question... what responsibility should he be forced to take in regards to said child and the mother? Should he be required to pay to help them live?

If he's got no rights at all in regards to the abortion or adoption of the child, shouldn't he at least have this one right... to give up all rights from that time on for that child?

[Greenday]

Honestly, I don't know what limits or boundaries to put in place to make it equally fair for both the man and the woman. And in all likelihood, there is absolutely no way to make it so it is equally fair.

If the man wants the child, but the woman does not, you cannot force her to carry the the baby to term.

If the woman wants the child, but the man does not, you shouldn't be able to force him to completely alter his life from what, in some cases, may be extremely promising to nothing. If I'm not living my life to the fullest potential, I'm wasting it. And if I have safe sex and do everything to have fun while using protection and still get a girl pregnant, unless she is the one I'm meant to be with, then I'm not giving up my life. Is that selfish? Damn right it is. If I'm not living my life for ME, why waste my time living as a mindless drone?

[AFPheonix]

It's kind of a patient's rights issue. I'm the one that's going to have to have the procedure, so ultimately it's my call.

As for child support, at that point, it really shouldn't be about who wanted what, it should be about the welfare of this now existing human being who is going to need assistance for a certain number of years. I would hope that couples would be adult enough to be able to talk about the whole issue, that the female would be willing to not accept child support if she was able to go it alone or the father would be willing to provide it in the interest of the person that is now half his.

Thankfully, since not all couples can manage grown-up conversations, courts can help measure out those sticky situations.

[Greenday]

Kinda stretching it, but according the Decleration of Independence, everyone has the right to life, liberty, and the persuit of happiness. Forcing a man to give up his life definitely takes away his right to the persuit of happiness.

[Sylvia727]

Nobody forced the guy to have unprotected sex. If the woman lied about or sabotaged the birth control, then that's entrapment and he should have the right to surrender all rights and responsibilities, but if a couple has an unplanned pregnancy, then the guy should absolutely be held at least as responsible as the gal. I say "at least" because men tend to have more earning power than women. No man has the right to be a deadbeat dad (or woman to be a deadbeat mom, but that's much less common). It doesn't matter that he wasn't ready-- maybe she wasn't ready either, but she's having the same responsibilities as him.

A man has no right to force a woman to undergo an abortion, both because it is a surgical procedure and because it is a moral right. If he doesn't want kids, he needs to take responsibility for his own life and wear a condom or get snipped. If he trusts the woman to take her pills, and she forgets or they don't work, that's a shame, but it doesn't absolve him. He let her do both their jobs of birth control; that doesn't lessen his responsibility. On the flip side, if a woman aborts and her partner believes in life before birth, then that's a horrible and avoidable tragedy. Make sure your partner shares your beliefs before you risk pregnancy.

Biologically, women have the greater control over the reproductive process, and it will be pretty damn hard for science to change this, not just in individuals but across all of society. I can't feel bad for men, though, since this means that women have the greater burden of childcare, which drives many single mothers into poverty. And if one looks at history, pregnancy is the main, if not the only, reason women were/are disenfranchised. In many cultures both historical and modern, women were/are seen as nothing more than broodmares and servants, and it boils down to the fact that women are biologically tied down with pregnancies, and because of that they are socially tied down with childcare. If it takes a while for men to receive reproductive equality, step back and look at how long it took for women to begin to receive economic equality, and we're still not there.

[Boozy]

Forcing a man to give up his life definitely takes away his right to the persuit of happiness.

Until government agents start holding guns to the heads of men and forcing them to ejaculate into fertile women's vaginas, no one is "forcing" men to do anything at all.

Courts don't have the ability to force anything of a father other than paying child support. And that is scaled to the size of the man's paycheque.

There are consequences to having vaginal intercourse. If you honestly feel that a pregnancy would destroy your life, then don't ejaculate near a woman's vagina.

[Greenday]

Courts don't have the ability to force anything of a father other than paying child support. And that is scaled to the size of the man's paycheque.

Yea, not always. I could be going to school to be a doctor, which would make lots of money. The court could tell me I have to quit and get a permanent full-time job or get rich quick, otherwise I could go to jail. I still believe looking out for number 1 is much more important.

[DesignFox]

Y<snip>I still believe looking out for number 1 is much more important.

No offense, Greenday, but don't have sex then. That is not a fair burden to put on the woman- or the child that you would be -in part- responsible for creating.

And as far as I know, the courts can't tell you to quit school and give up your dream of being a doctor. You may have to work harder. Your life may not be as easy and carefree as it once was. But...well...neither would the woman's. And you can bet that child's life won't be a bed of roses if you up and walk away from it.

I think this is one instance where life is never going to be fair. But to me, the welfare of the child should come before the welfare of the parents. The child has no choice in the matter. The parents did.

And yes, it would be ideal that the partner that WANTS the baby takes full responsibility for it. But in this imperfect world, I feel it is in the best interest of the child that the law insists one partner help the other. There are far too many cases of one partner taking off and being deadbeats as it is (and this mostly happens to women, who at a certain point during or after the pregnancy can do nothing to improve their financial circumstances- since sometimes they cannot physically go to work).

[Greenday]

No offense, Greenday, but don't have sex then. That is not a fair burden to put on the woman- or the child that you would be -in part- responsible for creating.

And as far as I know, the courts can't tell you to quit school and give up your dream of being a doctor. You may have to work harder. Your life may not be as easy and carefree as it once was. But...well...neither would the woman's. And you can bet that child's life won't be a bed of roses if you up and walk away from it.

I'm not having sex. Or, I am, but pregnancy cannot result from it. I'm being responsible about it. I don't believe it'd be a fair burden on the woman or child if I got a girl pregnant, nor do I believe it'd be a fair burden on me. There really is no pleasing everyone if either person doesn't want to have kids.

The court cannot tell you to quit school and give up your dreams, but they can sure as hell make it impossible to do so by forcing you to make payments that you could only do so through quitting school.

[MystyGlyttyr]

The only thing I have to add is that in cases that aren't explicitly rape, no one forced the girl to have sex, either. Everyone is talking about the man and what he did, but she had to lay down and open her legs, too. And suppose a woman raped a man and got pregnant? He's screwed in every sense of the word because A) no court is going to believe him (or at least it'll be a very rare judge who does), B) a woman who would do that would probably chase him down for child support, etc.

I know that's an extreme, but I'm just getting a little edgy about everyone talking all about the father and what he wasn't forced to do and not mentioning the mother. She has to know that she has a chance to get pregnant too...AND she is the one who typically has access to the best kinds of birth control...so she's at LEAST just as culpable in getting pregnant if not more so. Is that fair, no, but until they come up with a form of pill birth control for men, then that's how it is.

And I don't consider a man getting fixed "his" birth control. There's a major difference between a surgical procedure that affects you for the rest of your life and swallowing a pill every day or getting a shot every week that you can at any time choose to stop swallowing or getting (when it's being used purely for birth control purposes and not other medical reasons).

[kibbles]

I agree 100% with Mysty. In many things (such as this), everyone seems to talk about how the man should have done this or that; but, how about the woman?

Another example (probably a little off topic) is when you hear woman talk about daring the friends to go to strange men and slap their butt; but, get all offended when the same behavior is directed towards them. I just don't get it, LOL!

[DesignFox]

Oh don't get me wrong Mysty, I'm not saying the woman is absolved of responsibility, either. What I said to Greenday certainly applies to the woman also. But it takes two to tango. You both get to deal with the consequences of your actions. Not just one or the other.

And guys aren't limited to getting snipped. They CAN put a damn condom on for god's sake. Granted, it's not necessarily as effective as the pill- yes they can break and all that.. blah blah blah. But it certainly protects the guy more than doing nothing and hoping for the best. And anyway- for the prevention of STD's- you should be using one, regardless. (yes yes if you're married, monogamous, been tested there are exceptions- I'm generalizing). Oh- and I almost forgot about spermicides.

You can certainly layer on the protections. And there are options available to both sexes to protect themselves. Or either partner can choose to abstain.

It is not the child's choice to come into the world- only the two adults can decide to have sex. Only the woman (hopefully listening to her partner and taking his decision into account) can decide to a) bring that child into the world b) give that child up for adoption or c) abort the pregnancy and prevent the creation of an unwanted child.

If the multiple methods of birth control myself and my partner use would happen to fail, I would expect that my partner would be there to help me and not up and ditch me because, after all, looking out for #1 is the most important thing in the universe. The trust goes both ways. The relationship goes both ways. Both parties are equally responsible for their actions. And if it is a true partnership- that's how it should be.

Again. Not that life is fair. And people can be selfish, lying pricks- both male and female.

[Boozy]

I know that's an extreme, but I'm just getting a little edgy about everyone talking all about the father and what he wasn't forced to do and not mentioning the mother.

I think everyone's talking about the father because the thread title is called "Abortion Rights for Fathers".

And the fact that the mother will have to do one thing or another about the child growing inside her is a no-brainer... she's literally forced to make a decision at some point.