Abortion Rights for Fathers?

[AdminAssistant]

Oh, and why can't pregnant women eat fish?

Short answer: mercury.

I believe that farm-raised fish, in small quantities, are okay. Seems like Sis still ate catfish - but that was a few years ago.

[DesignFox]

<snip>
I'm not saying a woman should never have an abortion, ever. I'm just saying that the cavalier attitude towards it is extremely damaging. Her decision, no matter what she chooses, will be hanging over her head to some extent for the rest of her life. That's what I mean when I say she can't walk away.

The stakes for women are much higher. That is not fair, but it's the way it is. Life's not fair.

The fact that men need to face this, too is also not fair, but it's the way it is. Life's not fair.

I'm glad you addressed it from this angle RK, because I forgot to in my previous post. While I do think many women have more issue with it because of the stigma attached, I agree that whether or not that stigma existed, women would still struggle with the decision. It's not easy. No matter what the circumstance. I personally hope I never have to make that kind of decision.

<snip>

RK, your post implies long term emotional scarring happens for women, but men can just walk away without issue. For some, that is undoubtedly true. You have no idea how wrong you are for the rest of us, though.

<snip>

We know this isn't true of all guys, Pedersen. I wouldn't even say its true of most guys.

And I'm sincerely sorry to hear of your loss.

Thank you. I was posting more on my opinions of how fathers just don't seem to have any rights. I just forgot to mention what I'd actually do in that situation.

Thanks for clearing that up. Like Blas, I was definitely misinterpreting your first posts. I think it's awesome that you are taking precautions and wanting to stand by your woman.

Now if everyone did that, we wouldn't need to be having this discussion....

[RecoveringKinkoid]

I know, I, too am glad Greenday cleared that up. And I am blown away by his uncommon attitude towards the matter. It really is pretty much like mine.

I wasn't going to let a short time of fun set me up for a lifetime of hardship. So I didn't play. It's not always the popular option, but so be it.

Takes guts, Greenday, and I know that from personal experience. Good for you.

[Greenday]

I know, I, too am glad Greenday cleared that up. And I am blown away by his uncommon attitude towards the matter. It really is pretty much like mine.

I wasn't going to let a short time of fun set me up for a lifetime of hardship. So I didn't play. It's not always the popular option, but so be it.

Takes guts, Greenday, and I know that from personal experience. Good for you.

There's plenty I can still do sexually without doing anything that risks pregnancy. It's really not a challenge.

[RecoveringKinkoid]

There's plenty I can still do sexually without doing anything that risks pregnancy. It's really not a challenge.

That is exactly right. I'm with you, it's not like I was a prude when I was younger. I just avoided the thing that would cause me to get knocked up. It wasn't that hard.

[AFPheonix]

I was making an analogy moreso than taking a stance on child support. I actually do think that if a parent---be it a father or a mother---helps create a life and then gets up and leaves, then he or she should pay child support.

The point I was trying to make is that so many people seem to take the stance that "its the woman's body, so she alone decides whether or not to have the abortion." I was pointing out that this same line of reasoning could be applied to the child support issue, and is therefore faulty.

Ultimately it kind of HAS to be the woman's purview on whether she gets the abortion, simply because I'M the one that's going to have to take the drugs to cause contraction to remove the tissue from my uterus, I'M the one that's going to have to get a shot in my cervix to numb it, I'M the one that's going to get a speculum shoved up up my hooha to crank me open like a garage door, and I'M the one who gets a hoover vac up there to suck everything out.
Kind of like it's ultimately your decision to get your tonsils removed, regardless of how your mate feels about it. Not completely, but there's some similarities there.

Of course, a mature couple will talk to each other about it, and be truthful about it ahead of time. A mature female will take the concerns of her mate at the time into consideration as she ultimately makes the choice, along with what is ultimately going to be best for her physically, mentally and emotionally.
I guess the moral of the story is make sure that if you're going to boink, boink girls that are up front and honest with you.

[Nyoibo]

Short answer: mercury.

I believe that farm-raised fish, in small quantities, are okay. Seems like Sis still ate catfish - but that was a few years ago.

You Americans got some messed up fish.

[powerboy]

RK, your post implies long term emotional scarring happens for women, but men can just walk away without issue. For some, that is undoubtedly true. You have no idea how wrong you are for the rest of us, though.

Pedersen, I am like you on one thing. I too had an ex that mis-carried. Her and I both were ready to be parents and wanted it. Do I think about it at times? Hell yes I do. I would have had a daughter, which I always wanted and still want one.

I actually think that abortion should not even be an option. You don't want a child, give it up for adoption.

[Cats]

I'm mostly pro-life, so I don't exactly believe in abortions unless there's extenuating circumstances (such as rape or the health of the mother/child would compromise quality of life). For the record though, I do not think abortion should be illegal either (since that won't stop people from getting them, but it will put a brick in the gears of having them be "safe").

If a man who's pressing for abortion cause he doesn't want to support the child should be told to suck it up, then I feel the woman should too.

Yes, I do know woman are a lot more effected (physically and emotionally) by a pregnancy and abortion/miscarriages, but unless you were raped, you TOO played in that role of doing the naked dance.

I'm with blas, if you are not fully willing to accept the consequences of your actions (ones that you are FULLY aware of) when there are risks (even if they are small), then keep it in your pants. there are other ways to be intimate other than vaginal intercourse. If you need ideas, there's aways the Kama Sutra or internet porn.

I know not everyone shares my views on abortion. In a comitted relationship, honestly I think potential pregnancy and how to handle it should be discussed beforehand, as well as if the issue DOES in fact happen. I think the father SHOULD have a say, since they BOTH created that life, but ultimately, in the event of a disagreement, it should be up to the woman since she has to deal with the physical ramnifications of the decision in the end, not the father. Of course there are fathers who do feel the emotional burden of an abortion, but due to the circumstances that is life, the woman is forced to bear more of a burden.

[Lace Neil Singer]

I actually think that abortion should not even be an option. You don't want a child, give it up for adoption.

You're a man, so you're never going to have to make that choice. Also, in case you didn't know, pregnancy takes a terrible toll on the body. Women who are preparing for motherhood will put up with the physical aspects of pregnancy and childbirth, cuz they will get the child at the end that they want. However, I am not going to put my body thru hell as well as risking my life and health, both mental and physical, just to placate someone who thinks that adoption is the answer to an unwanted pregnancy. Also, not every baby given up for adoption gets a lovely set of parents and a great life; there are thousands of kids sitting in children's homes, or being shoved from foster home to foster home. I am doing everything I can to prevent being infested with a parasite; I'm sorry, but I don't see why I should go thru all that trauma just to satisfy a few liberals, who put the rights of a fetus over the rights of a woman to be more than an incubator.

[AdminAssistant]

Actually, Lace, in America it's the conservatives who put the rights of the fetus over the rights of the woman. Something about how Jesus told them so. And in the great state of Arkansas (my home state) they just passed a law that unmarried couples could not adopt or foster children - a law designed to target gay couples without actually "discriminating" against them. So, even fewer choices for the kids there.

I'm not a fan of abortion, I pray I never find myself in a situation where I have to have one. But I'm also not going to be a nun. And there are rape cases - and a rape victim should not be forced to carry a child. If you want to eliminate abortions, then get ready to hand out a lot of rusty coat hangers, because desperate women will just take the matter into their own hands.

The real solution is preventing unwanted pregnancies, through better education, better birth control availability, etc. Not to mention telling guys that wearing condoms doesn't make them less of a man and that no does mean 'no'. It doesn't mean 'maybe'. And girls should be told that if a guy doesn't accept 'no' for an answer, that is permission to hit said guy violently and repeatedly in the balls until he accepts that answer.

[Lace Neil Singer]

I didn't mean liberal as in a political party; just as in "bleeding heart" liberals who scream if a woman dares to want to get an abortion, but show little or no interest in caring for all the thousands of unwanted kids already here.

In any case, making something illegal doesn't stop people from wanting it; and I for one would prefer that women can go to a nice, safe, clean clinic and receive counselling and care from trained professionals... rather than visit a struck off doctor in a backstreet armed with knitting needles and gin. Or attempt to abort themselves using soapy water and a syringe, risking a fatal air embolism.

This makes good reading for anyone who thinks that making abortions illegal is the answer: http://socialistworker.org/2005-2/56...Abortion.shtml

[Boozy]

I think "liberal" must mean something different on this side of the pond. Pro-choice people here are usually labelled "liberal", whereas pro-lifers are "conservative".

Hard-core socialists are another ball of wax. After all, the political spectrum isn't a line, it's a circle.

Let's chalk this one up to language differences and get back to the real debate.

[Lace Neil Singer]

Yay. XD

Anyway, I always think that abortion threads are a bit like opening a can of worms; there's always people on both sides of the issue with very strong views on it. I don't really see how one woman choosing to abort a fetus is anyone's business but her own or possibly her partner's. I understand that it must suck for a guy who's girlf goes and gets an abortion against his will, but let's face it, it's not an equal playing field and never will be, so ultimately, her rights override his.

[Pedersen]

In any sense, nothing they are saying is based on any kind of life experience. These heinous opinions they are expressing are nothing more than the bullshit they are regurgitating from women's studies textbooks, feminist literature, and misandrous periodicals such as Cosmo and Ms.

I'm going to hopefully save you from some of the shit storm you've just brought on yourself by pointing out that you are wrong. Go and read the replies to my own post, and you'll see that what is being discussed in those phrases is not what you have taken from them.

They are discussing the fact that, for a male, the option physically exists for him to simply disappear. He can choose to remove himself. He has the physical capacity (though not necessarily the mental or emotional) to refuse to deal with what has occurred. The woman who is pregnant does not. She must decide how she will deal with it.

Something that I do find interesting is how divided on gender lines this issue is. Men are saying "Your body, but my life is extremely affected by your choice, and I should therefore get some say in what happens." Women replying in this thread are overwhelmingly stating "My body, my choice, deal with it."

I've seen another thread about circumcision which did much the same, but with most women taking the opposite tack of saying "Who cares?" and most men saying "My body, why don't I get a choice?"

To me, it's an interesting study in contrasts. Everybody wants control of their own bodies, but seems unwilling to allow everybody else to maintain control of their own bodies. Both genders do it. Anyway, back to the main topic.

Men always have the physical ability to walk away. Most of us don't have the emotional ability to do so. Denying us any input on what happens when both parties have caused a pregnancy seems wrong to me. And don't say "The guy made his choice in advance" because so did the woman (except in cases of rape). Once that happens, both parties should have some amount of say in what happens next. I just don't know where that dividing line should be.