Vigilate or murderer???

[DrFaroohk]

"War veteran" is a misleading term. My ex-father-in-law was a "vietnam war veteran". You know what he did? He joined the military about 2 days before the war was over. Since he was enlisted at the time, he was a "war veteran". Even some of the guys who actually "fought" overseas were simply cooks or doctors or garbagemen or something. I'm not trying to crap on those guys, I'm just saying that War Veteran =/= Master of All Forms of Combat.

Not everyone has the ability to think 100% clearly in these situations. I seriously doubt this pharmacist was. It's easy to look back and say "well, he turned his back on him and did this and that". It was a crazy situation. He was being robbed!

Even if he did everything wrong, even if every move he made was illegal...he should never have been put in that situation to begin with. Who put him in that situation? The punk kid robbers. That's who. They had it coming. Those of you who "know someone" who was in prison and them reformed themselves? That's the exception, not the rule. The world would be a better place if more of these people got shot and killed.

Or, one could argue that maybe this pharmacist will go on to do great things in life, and by putting him in prison for murder, he'll never get those done. How do you know that this punk kid he killed wasn't going on to be the next Hitler? That's at least as valid an argument as "He might have grown up to be president!"

[tabbyblack13]

If the robber was caught and put on trial, he would most likely be tried as an adult. He was 16 and a gun was used. I doubt the he would have become president or had any career that required a background check. The thing is what if the pharmacist or either of the two co-workers were killed. People would be saying "They should have used one the guns behind the counter"

Also if you are in the military you are given basic training no matter what. During Vietnam my dad was a mechanic but he was still expected to be able to fight when he needed to.

[BlaqueKatt]

The punk kid robbers. That's who. They had it coming. Those of you who "know someone" who was in prison and them reformed themselves? That's the exception, not the rule. The world would be a better place if more of these people got shot and killed.

Yeah because killing someone who makes a bad decision teaches them not to make bad decisions

I imagine you have never committed any kind of crime-no jaywalking, speeding, spitting on the sidewalk, smoking marijuana...etc.

I am an advocate of protecting yourself within the law-this man disregarded the law, as did the suspects-but two wrongs never make a right. He could've been the better person, but he sunk below their level and became a murderer.


Again-no one has answered this:

Who decides the value of a human life?

Most of the people on this thread that support the pharmacist's actions have gone so far as to demonize "those punk kids", do you know them personally? Or are you just assuming from one bad decision that they're worthless.

"For most human beings, it takes an awful lot to allow them to kill another human being," said Anthony Pratkanis, a psychology professor at the University of California, Santa Cruz. "The only way to do it is to justify the killing, to make the enemy look as evil as possible."


No killing is justified and to try to justify it by claiming the criminals life is worth less, also lessens the value of all life including your own-as you have no moral high ground to stand on when someone makes the same judgment against you.

It's a perfect example of cognitive dissonance-you believe murder is wrong but try to justify it by making the other person "less than human"-usually common during times of war.

[Greenday]

Pretty clear case of Murder I to me. He shot the kid in the head and knew he wasn't a threat so he had no problem leaving him behind and turning his back towards him. The kid was unconscious with a bullet in his head for the love of God. About as dangerous as a boxful of kittens at that point.

[DrFaroohk]

Yeah because killing someone who makes a bad decision teaches them not to make bad decisions

I didn't say it does. It removes them from the equation is what it does.

I imagine you have never committed any kind of crime-no jaywalking, speeding, spitting on the sidewalk, smoking marijuana...etc.

We're not talking about jaywalking, spitting on the sidewalk, or smoking pot. We're talking about someone who threatened another man's life with a gun, and that man took steps to protect himself. Did he go to far? Of course. He still doesn't deserve to be tried as a freakin' murderer though. He just "made a mistake" too. Does he deserve to have his entire life taken away (I'm pretty sure that the murder 1 charge everyone is calling for carries either a death penalty or at least life in prison) just because he made a mistake? Y'all are awfully forgiving of the shitbags who created the incident. Where'd the forgiveness go for the guy who was just minding his own business at work, making a career for himself and just trying to get by in life when someone came in and PULLED A GUN ON HIM?

I am an advocate of protecting yourself within the law-this man disregarded the law, as did the suspects-but two wrongs never make a right. He could've been the better person, but he sunk below their level and became a murderer.

Again, because of a situation someone else created. He didn't ask to be held up.

Again-no one has answered this:

Who decides the value of a human life?

I don't see why it's so complicated. If someone tries to kill me, why is his life still equal to mine? I'm more productive to society than he is, I'm less harmful to society than he is, and I'm not going around threatening anyone. The only laws this pharmacist broke are flawed to begin with.



Sorry in advance if my quoting comes out all messed up, I don't usually bother with it due to laziness.

[Boozy]

Sorry in advance if my quoting comes out all messed up, I don't usually bother with it due to laziness.

If you've got time to apologize for it, you've got time to fix your quote tags.

As it turns out, they were just fine anyway.

[Nyoibo]

Also, isn't the rule of self defence is that equal force is allowed to be used, not excessive force??

Necesary force, not equal force, but it's very much a subjective judgement call.

[BlaqueKatt]

We're talking about someone who threatened another man's life with a gun, and that man took steps to protect himself.

Apparently you missed the part where the 16 year-old he shot DID NOT HAVE ANY WEAPON-the 14 year-old gunman was arrested later.




[QUOTE=DrFaroohk;21596] I don't see why it's so complicated. If someone tries to kill me, why is his life still equal to mine?[QUOTE=DrFaroohk;21596]

because he's still human-"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."

notice it says nothing about "all men except<insert undesirable trait here>"

When you start putting a value on life-yours becomes just as worthless, after all you may be someone else's "undesirable", or they may consider you a threat for some reason.

I'm more productive to society than he is, I'm less harmful to society than he is, and I'm not going around threatening anyone.

You can't really prove that-maybe the person that ends up threatening your life is a soldier following orders(like during a natural disaster when the national guard is called to enforce curfews), or a police officer and you resemble a suspect. Possibly mentally ill and unable to get treatment-due to how difficult it can be.

or like this Schoolteacher-wife 7 months pregnant, one year old child and in severe debt to a casino amongst other debt-and obviously very desperate to take care of his family, not lose everything-heck he has a a bachelor's degree in early childhood education, and a full time job as a teacher-sounds pretty productive to me. But because he made a mistake to you he's scum right, and his life as a schoolteacher is less productive than yours. Get off your high horse-your life is worth no more or less than anyone else's-genocides begin with that kind of thinking.

[powerboy]

Most of the people on this thread that support the pharmacist's actions have gone so far as to demonize "those punk kids", do you know them personally? Or are you just assuming from one bad decision that they're worthless.

I am sure that you would think that they were sweethearts, if they held a gun to your head and robbed you. Anyone who is a in gang, robs is worthless. If anyone is trying to kill me, I will do whatever it took to atleast try to stop them.

[BlaqueKatt]

I am sure that you would think that they were sweethearts, if they held a gun to your head and robbed you

I have been robbed at gunpoint-thank you very little-and actually while I was scared at the time I also saw the desperation in the eyes of the human being that was holding a gun on me.

Anyone who is a in gang, robs is worthless.

Even the teenage runaway/kidnap victim forced into prostitution trying to get money to escape her situation?(read some stories about them here) Even the person who ends up in debt due to losing their job-and trying to prevent someone they care about from having to starve/turn to selling themselves? Even the kid that's forced to join a gang or be killed-

Jesus I'm autistic and I have more human compassion than that. To quote Dog the bounty hunter-"as long as you wake up on this side of the ground, there's hope"

[Wingates_Hellsing]

Normally, I am in support of defensive shootings.

This however, was a defensive shooting that turned into an execution. He specifically finished the kid off.

If it had been five shots pumped into the kid during the initial altercation, that's all well and good, but he swept right past defending himself and executed the kid.

I can see how he might have been still caught up in the moment when he did it, but that doesn't change the fact that he chose to kill the kid rather than secure the weapon in question and keep him covered while one of the other people called the cops.

Kid definately deserved to die or rot in jail, but it wasn't that guy's place to choose death instead of prison... none of it would have happened if the kid hadn't decided to rob the store though, so it's him that put his life in danger to begin with, while the shooter simply clinched it (by murdering the kid).

Still, murder is murder.

[Nyoibo]

Apparently you missed the part where the 16 year-old he shot DID NOT HAVE ANY WEAPON-

Remind me to post a picture of myself at some stage, then I want you to tell me how many weapons I'm carrying.

[Slytovhand]

Oooh - Wingates..."execution" - good word!

Nyoibo, let me put a bullet in your head first, then I can safely take a look. (No, mods, I'm not even remotely serious about that... I'm just comparing situations... the kid was unconscious on the floor - if there was uncertainty about him having a weapon, it could have been determined...prior to the execution-style killing... yep, liking that word! )

I'm just curious, since we've touched up 'worth' and 2 things have come to mind (as I type, so it won't come out right ).

Firstly, I'm willing to guarantee that the kid already has a low sense of self-worth, so calling him worthless would only reinforce that feeling. This is still a human being we're talking about (ok, yeah, was). Everyone is. Everyone changes... Some for the better, some for the worst, and some... well, do bugger all in life, but somehow are considered 'better' than others.

Secondly - we know nothing about this pharmacist. What are the chances karma has come back and bit him in the arse? Perhaps, while out in Iraq (it was Iraq, wasn't it? Or was it Kuwait??), he did the same thing to some other kids? Perhaps he's just copying his previous actions, except this time he's been caught out? (I'm not actually trying to slur his character, I'm just pointing out that I don't see any reason to pass judgement on the pharmacist as being a good guy, while the kid is scum... from one single incident).

[DesignFox]

Remind me to post a picture of myself at some stage, then I want you to tell me how many weapons I'm carrying.

Ooh please do. I'd be interested to see.

Hey. I never said that pumping an extra 5 in him was the "right" thing to do. But, I still don't think the pharmacist is a murderer. I argue that the shooting never would have occurred if the kids didn't confront the pharmacist with a gun. And therefore, I'm not willing to say this guy, who was defending himself, deserves life in prison or the death penalty.

The death penalty, while I'm all in favor, should only be reserved for the most heinous and incurable of criminals. Not a guy who got carried away during an armed robbery.

This "baby" committed a big boy crime. He unfortunately, suffered big boy consequences and paid for it- with his life. We'll never know if he would have survived without taking the extra 5 to the stomach. Maybe he would have. But I'm not too fussed when a criminal gets killed in the act. If some group of dirtbags broke into my home or place of work and threatened me, if I had the means to defend myself, I can't say for certain how I would react.

[Greenday]

Even if he is found guilty of Murder I, I don't any possibility of him getting the death sentence. I'd place my money on him getting life with parole.