"You have no say in determining what a woman feels is sexual harassment."

[HEMI6point1]

Disclaimer: I am in no way dismissing legit cases here. They do happen and the people who commit the offenses need to be punished accordingly.

I was talking to a friend about one aspect of sexual harassment that no one seems to want to admit thanks to our overly PC atmosphere: That in certain cases a guy gets a sexual harassment complaint hurled at him simply because he wasn't "properly hunky" enough.

I gave an example:

Let's say that a guy at his job sees a woman who is newly hired and thinks she is attractive. He gets to know her, and decides to ask her out for coffee or whatever. That's it. Said woman is offended simply because he's not "properly hunky," complains to his boss who thanks to his workplace having a "zero tolerance" policy fires him on the grounds of sexual harassment.

I asked my friend, "Should the guy really lose his job for the 'crime' of finding a woman attractive?"

My friend said, "Well no, but.... who are you, or me, or any man to determine for a woman what is sexual harassment and what is not?"

So I gave another example: Let's say a man is shopping at his favorite supermarket and he sees a woman he thinks is cute in the produce isle so he decides to try and chat her up. Said woman is offended simply because he's not "properly hunky," complains to the store manager who thanks to his store having a "zero tolerance" policy kicks him out on the grounds of sexual harassment and bans him from coming back.

I asked my friend, "Should the guy really be banned from his favorite supermarket for the 'crime' of finding a woman attractive?"

My friend said, "Well no, but again.... who are you, or me, or any man to determine for a woman what is sexual harassment and what is not?"

Later on, I asked the simple question to him: "Where do we find common ground on this issue?"

He said, "Sad to say it but there is no common ground. You, me and any other man will just have to be careful."

I feel bad because there are guys all over the place that are now literally afraid to approach women. It's not just regular dudes either. Henry Cavill recently stated he is apprehensive about approaching women in this era - and he's a handsome famous actor.

As Bill Maher recently stated (paraphrasing here) you have to be the "right guy," problem is that we don't know what the "right guy" is!

[mjr]

Sweden recently passed an "explicit consent" law.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-a8367996.html

As far as I know, some places here in the U.S. let people decide weeks or months later that they can withdraw consent, and the sex that they had was unwanted, and therefore is rape.

But my question about the above Swedish law is as follows: Does that apply to spouses? Generally sex just kind of happens naturally with spouses. Does that imply "explicit consent"? And do they have to ask each other? Like some kind of weird wedding ceremony?

"Do you, wife, agree to have sex at this time with your husband?"
"I do"
"Do you, husband, agree to have sex at this time with your wife?"
"I do"

Or is marriage "implied consent"? But remember, the Swedish law says "explicit consent".

Honestly, men should seriously write up "sex contracts". Basically put the names of the two people, things that they both agree to, and have it signed and dated.

Also, my son is 13, and I'm not even going to know what to tell him when he starts dating.

[jackfaire]

Here's an example of not sexual harassment. You've gotten to know a person socially. You both have a lot in common and you think you might want to take the relationship to the next level so you ask him/her out on a date. If they say no you laugh it off and continue being friends. If they say yes you go on a date.

Here's an example of sexual harassment.

Strange person walks up to you in a place like the store where you're just trying to buy your groceries and tries to get you to go out with them.

Person at your work decides that even though you're there to do a job it's the right time to suddenly ask you out.

Yes both are sexual harassment regardless of gender or attractiveness. Simply put it's not an appropriate scenario or time to be trying to get laid.

And unless you have been developing a friendship with a person it looks like a person just trying to get laid.

Sometimes a person won't complain about sexual harassment because the sexual attention is welcomed for whatever reason.

Also that Zero Tolerance policy doesn't come out of nowhere. If a person's comany has a "do not date coworkers" policy there's a simple way to handle that. Don't date co-workers. Don't ask out a coworker. It's really simple. If the complaint here was "I said non-sexual generic thing to person and got fired for sexual harassment" then sure I could see someone having an argument.

For years I have heard things like "Man I struck out a lot last night" which rephrased is " God do you know how many guys hit on me when I was just here to have drinks with my friends?"

That being said there are places, groups, and activities that openly encourage a way to meet people who want to meet a potential partner. Hell in this day and age the fact it's easier to meet willing partners but we complain about not being able to hit on unwilling partners is appalling.

[Greenday]

Don't hit on your co-workers. Should be plainly obvious. It's a place of work, not a social club.

Don't creep on strangers. Poor woman is just trying to get her grocery shopping done. She's not there to be harassed by strangers.

[HEMI6point1]

Holy sheet you guys are killing me....

If you're not "allowed" to approach a woman in any setting, HOW ARE YOU SUPPOSED TO MEET ANYBODY???!!

I mean seriously, if this current attitude existed when my mom met my dad I wouldn't be here right now. There would be people like yourselves that would say to my dad, "You work at your pop's gas station and she's just trying to sell her car leave her alone eleventy!!!!!!"

I remember telling a friend recently, "I feel bad for future generations because if men are now supposed to never approach women in any setting...."

He cut me off and practically finished my sentence, "Yeah 'cause we won't have any!"

[s_stabeler]

first of all, it's (usually) got nothing to do with someone being "properly hunky".
1) in the case of the co-worker, it's often not a good idea to ask out co-workers, particularly since there can be power dynamics you wouldn't expect at first glance. (I'm guessing the sexual harassment was because it can feel a little oppressive when a more-experienced co-workers hits on you, since they presumably have the knowledge of the job and connections to interfere with your ability to do your own job)
2) in the case of someone in the produce isle, then it's not really an appropriate place to flirt. If you flip it around, should a woman have to put up with someone flirting with them when they're just trying to do their shopping? Also, it's very easy to go too far when trying to "chat up" somebody and it turn into sexual harassment.Most obviously, I wouldn't be surprised if she told him to knock it off and he didn't. that definitely turns it into sexual harassment.

[jackfaire]

If you're not "allowed" to approach a woman in any setting, HOW ARE YOU SUPPOSED TO MEET ANYBODY???!!

"If you're not "allowed" to approach a woman in any setting"

Has nothing to do with

"How are you supposed to meet anybody"

Meet people. Get to know them. After you know them and have decided you like them. Ask them out.

Simple easy and a lot less offensive than "I see attractive woman over there I am going to ask her out"

What women hear "Hi I want to fuck you do you want to fuck me?"

That's why the "Hunky guys" get away with it because if the girl wants to have sex too and the guy is to her liking then she's answering "yes"

Randomly asking a person you barely if at all know out on a date is a request for sex.

Asking out someone you've gotten to know over a period of time is a request for a deeper more meaningful relationship.

I mean seriously, if this current attitude existed when my mom met my dad I wouldn't be here right now. There would be people like yourselves that would say to my dad, "You work at your pop's gas station and she's just trying to sell her car leave her alone eleventy!!!!!!"

And unless it's literally the first time your dad ever asked out a woman in that situation then there are other women who walked away thinking, "Ugh I was just trying to (whatever business they were conducting) what a creep"

[Daskinor]

Asking a coworker out is rarely seen as harassment by the courts, when all things are equal.

If your boss asks you out for coffee, that is an entire other bag of worms because there is a power dynamic there that can be abused. Even if said boss had no intention of exploiting it.

But in my opinion, never ask coworkers out.

As for MJR comment;

As far as I know, some places here in the U.S. let people decide weeks or months later that they can withdraw consent, and the sex that they had was unwanted, and therefore is rape.

I think your confusing two separate things.

There was a recent (last few years) debate about if a woman can withdraw consent during intercourse. Of course majority of states said 'of course they can'. North Carolina was the last holdout due to a State Supreme Court decision 'State v. Way'. Something they recently fixed, but of course some news outlets reported doom and destruction for men.

The other issue of course is the woman saying its rape after having consensual sex. Of course that has always been illegal as perjury. But no where can someone say a week after having consensual sex, then change your mind about it so they can be prosecuted for rape.

[HEMI6point1]

first of all, it's (usually) got nothing to do with someone being "properly hunky".
1) in the case of the co-worker, it's often not a good idea to ask out co-workers, particularly since there can be power dynamics you wouldn't expect at first glance. (I'm guessing the sexual harassment was because it can feel a little oppressive when a more-experienced co-workers hits on you, since they presumably have the knowledge of the job and connections to interfere with your ability to do your own job)
2) in the case of someone in the produce isle, then it's not really an appropriate place to flirt. If you flip it around, should a woman have to put up with someone flirting with them when they're just trying to do their shopping? Also, it's very easy to go too far when trying to "chat up" somebody and it turn into sexual harassment.Most obviously, I wouldn't be surprised if she told him to knock it off and he didn't. that definitely turns it into sexual harassment.

There is a rather significant amount of people who work together and end up in a relationship. If you work for a large company, sooner or later you're going to find yourself attracted to someone. If the other person doesn't work in the same department and not in the same room, I don't see an issue with it.

Now, I will agree that if a woman refuses a man's "chat up" tactics and he continues, that I will agree will fall into the harassment category. But if he just merely approaches her, says "Hi," tries to make small talk and backs off if she's clearly not interested that's not harassment.

[HEMI6point1]

And unless it's literally the first time your dad ever asked out a woman in that situation then there are other women who walked away thinking, "Ugh I was just trying to (whatever business they were conducting) what a creep"

My dad actually knew my mother from before, and he heard from one of her friends that she was selling her car because she wanted to move out of state. He knew then that if he didn't, he might never get the chance again. So he did.

[Canarr]

Don't hit on your co-workers. Should be plainly obvious. It's a place of work, not a social club.

30% of relationships start at work.

And why wouldn't they? We spend a lot of time at work, surrounded by the same people. I'm friendly with some coworkers, we'll go out occasionally, do things socially outside of work, chat during breaks or in the elevator... that sort of thing. We're human beings, not robots. So, why shouldn't single coworkers flirt with each other, maybe try a date?

Obviously, I'm not talking about going up to someone you've barely had any interaction with to say, "You. Me. Supply closet. Thirty minutes. Wink, wink, nudge, nudge." Also, a power dynamic between supervisor and subordinate may be a problem, and company policy must be observed. But to categorically deny people to flirt with their coworkers shows a remarkable disregard for human nature.

Randomly asking a person you barely if at all know out on a date is a request for sex.

Not necessarily. I haven't been single in more than a decade, but when I was, the number of occasions where I felt an interest in talking to a strange woman (in a train, a bookstore, a grocery store, whereever) was far lower than the number of pretty women I encountered. Attraction - to me, at least - is more than just physical beauty. It may be a laugh, the way they move or talk, anything.

So, while sex certainly plays a role in trying to hit on a stranger, that doesn't necessarily mean just a one-night stand. It may very well be an interest in getting to know the other person, with the ultimate goal being a relationship, not a notch in the bedpost.

However, if you do try to "chat up" a stranger, and they say no, let it go. None of that "she's just playing hard to get!" nonsense, or it will cross the line into harassment.

[MadMike]

Oh boy, this reminds me of the "Sexual Harassment Awareness" training we had to take at my job awhile back. Basically what it came down to was, even if you didn't intend to sexually harass someone, if the other person felt harassed then you were guilty of sexual harassment. Kind of makes you not want to talk to anyone. I can understand it to a point, but where do you draw the line? If someone decides you harassed them when all you did was simply say "Hello", should you be guilty?

It wasn't just this part that concerned me, the whole thing was stupid, and much to the instructor's annoyance, no one was taking the whole thing seriously. But then, it was very hard not to. At one point, they showed a video of supposed examples, and one clip showed a woman walking down the hall, when a male coworker wolf-whistled at her. It was like, the 1950s called. They want their movie back.

I'll admit, I couldn't keep my mouth shut at one point. The instructor said that certain gestures, like flipping someone the finger, could be considered harassment. I just chuckled and said, "Well then I guess I sexually harassed that guy who cut me off at the red light this morning." The old lady sitting next to me said, "I'm 70 years old! I'm not going to harass anyone, and no one is going to harass me!" And someone else said that the only reason we had to suffer through this was because Bill Clinton couldn't keep it in his pants.

So yeah, the whole thing was stupid. Not saying sexual harassment doesn't exist or isn't a problem, but whoever put together that training program shouldn't have a job.

[Canarr]

Oh boy, this reminds me of the "Sexual Harassment Awareness" training we had to take at my job awhile back. Basically what it came down to was, even if you didn't intend to sexually harass someone, if the other person felt harassed then you were guilty of sexual harassment. Kind of makes you not want to talk to anyone. I can understand it to a point, but where do you draw the line? If someone decides you harassed them when all you did was simply say "Hello", should you be guilty?

I have an issue with that, too. Sure, I get that harassment is subjective; but I just feel that if someone might lose their job over an harassment complaint, or even go to jail (the UK is working on that), then there should be some sort of objecitve criteria to measure it by.

[jackfaire]

My dad actually knew my mother from before, and he heard from one of her friends that she was selling her car because she wanted to move out of state. He knew then that if he didn't, he might never get the chance again. So he did.

Which actually contradicts your point. You presented it as if your dad approached a woman he did not know and that in this day and age he wouldn't have been able to do that.

What you are now saying actually happened is what I said should be done. He knew her socially and then took an opportunity to ask for it to become more which isn't sexual harassment.

So no the fact that it's become more normal for men to realize women don't want to be asked out by random guys they don't know would have no bearing on your birth at all.

[jackfaire]

So, while sex certainly plays a role in trying to hit on a stranger, that doesn't necessarily mean just a one-night stand. It may very well be an interest in getting to know the other person, with the ultimate goal being a relationship, not a notch in the bedpost.

I didn't say a one night stand. But you know nothing about her and a lot of women I know are sick of strange guys coming up talking to them for all of 2 minutes before asking them on a date and it being expected that they should be grateful A MAN deigned to consider them worthy of dating.

Most people I know men and women don't consider the short amount of "chatting up" that happens before being asked out enough to know more than "I want to have sex with you at some point"

Unless a person is psychic 2 minutes is not enough time to establish that yes this is a person I want a relationship with. So from the perspective of the person being asked the other person is looking to have sex with you and is basing wanting to get to know you better only on the fact they know they'd like to have sex with you at some point.

Odds are it's not on how you feel about your parents, what your favorite movie is or even your sense of humor. All I am saying is rather than approach women like we want to chat them up we approach them like we approach other men. Be friendly and make a damn friend.

If that friendship then yields a dating opportunity great. But being asked out by someone you've gotten to know will seem more sincere and genuine than by the guy who spent all of two minutes with you in the grocery store when you were just shopping.

I'll be honest even if I spent a whole day together with someone I probably wouldn't ask her out based on that because that was likely one encounter in one environment with little variance in how she would act or be.

Also keep in mind that while you're thinking "It's no big deal if I chat her up and ask if she says no cool I'll back off' but for you that's one encounter. For her you could be the fifteenth guy she's had to say no to that day. It gets frustrating.