Woman in NY Restaurant Banned from Eating at the Bar

[catcul]

A woman that visits New York City often was told to go eat at a table instead of a bar. She was angry when she saw a male customer eating at the bar. The owner was tired of having prostitutes hanging around his restaurant.

[Canarr]

Interesting how it's apparantly fallout from the shutdown of Craigslist and Backpage escort ads. Makes a certain kind of sense, I guess; escorts aren't going to stop working just because one marketing channel has been closed off, they'll just look for other ways to advertise.

I'm kinda torn on the owner's solution, though. On the one hand, it does eliminate his problem - if no women are allowed to eat at the bar, it does make it significantly harder for escorts to make their pitch, and I can understand that an upscale restaurant isn't interested in that kind of clientele. On the other hand, it's hardly fair to discriminate against all women, just because some of them are prostitutes.

[HEMI6point1]

This is a fringe effect of when you pass laws to crack down on stuff for "morality reasons."

[telecom_goddess]

I really don't even understand why prostitution is even illegal anymore. It's the oldest profession for a reason, because sex sells. If two people consent to sex for sale what's the harm? If it was legal it would be a lot safer for everyone.

Just give it up and make it legal already.

[catcul]

No politician wants to die on that hill, TG.

[Greenday]

I really don't even understand why prostitution is even illegal anymore. It's the oldest profession for a reason, because sex sells. If two people consent to sex for sale what's the harm? If it was legal it would be a lot safer for everyone.

Just give it up and make it legal already.

Well, as far as craigslist and backpage are concerned, they were being used heavily for sex trafficking.

As for not wanting prostitutes at your bar, maybe some bars are dealing with regulars getting hassled and not coming back as a result.

Whatever the reason, alienating 50% of your potential revenue isn't the answer.

[Gravekeeper]

Well, as far as craigslist and backpage are concerned, they were being used heavily for sex trafficking.

From what I understand, in reality this had the effect of actually making it harder for law enforcement to track / prosecute sex trafficking while leaving sex workers without a safer method of screening clients. Craigslist / Backpage gave law enforcement not only digital footprints to rely on but also an overview to monitor trafficking networks and activity levels.

As for the article, it seems like a problem with no good answer. It sounds like its a significant problem if restaurants / bars are actually noticing it happening regularly.

America is far to puritan to forward any kind of sensible sex worker legislation. Even though that would cut every single problem all at once. It'd cut crime, trafficking, organized crime involvement, etc while opening up new tax revenue.

[D_Yeti_Esquire]

America is far to puritan to forward any kind of sensible sex worker legislation. Even though that would cut every single problem all at once. It'd cut crime, trafficking, organized crime involvement, etc while opening up new tax revenue.

Honestly I don't even think it's this. Sex Worker legislation is a policy that essentially needs a driving demographic. For as high and mighty as people are with pot showing up everywhere, it's really not any more enlightened than a bunch of the baby boomers that didn't support it now suddenly find they have aches and pains and depression and they're not working, so why the hell not? No one got smarter, the primary voting demographic's situation changed.

With sex workers, the only driving force that I think could push it through would be young men primarily. Evangelicals gonna evangelical. Feminist women is sort of split between sex positivity and those that view prostitution as enabling the objectification of women (yes I'm being reductive but there are a lot of reasons feminist women will vote no on this). For as many positive discussions I've seen in that space, there are plenty where at times I'll get the distinct impression there are women (just like men) who don't like the idea that a man who can't "pick up a woman" has a recourse. Their reactions to the sex workers seem to pale in comparison to their response to the johns.

So I think you COULD have a critical mass on this topic, but the olds are probably past it for the most part, women will by and large be split averaging negative (Evangelicals + Anti-objectification Feminists) which leaves the only real possibility a critical mass of men moving the discussion. It may happen in the future but I don't see it happening now. Maybe a Gen Z thing or maybe one after and probably a loose affiliation between sex-positive feminists and a more scholastic MRAish but not MRA movement. Millennial will never push it because I'm not sure there's any detente to be had between intersectional feminists and non-allies and I don't think you'll get it until maybe another half generation comes out with stats/studies on the current environment. The millennial cohort itself is too dug in.

[Gravekeeper]

Honestly I don't even think it's this. Sex Worker legislation is a policy that essentially needs a driving demographic. For as high and mighty as people are with pot showing up everywhere, it's really not any more enlightened than a bunch of the baby boomers that didn't support it now suddenly find they have aches and pains and depression and they're not working, so why the hell not? No one got smarter, the primary voting demographic's situation changed.

Don't underestimate religious conservative pearl clutching. Remember, the whole country was traumatized by Janet Jackson's nipple tassel. Hell, Utah declared porn was a public health crisis and that was only a couple years ago. America's puritan streak of sex shaming runs deeper than just political expediency. Sure, some people use it as such but it only works because there are enough true believers to rally behind it. Sex and shame are pretty deeply tied together in America's overall psyche and while those roots are from religion, it permeates further than it appears on the surface.

"People so uptight the English kicked them out" and all that. -.-

Heck, my grandparents on my dad's side and his entire family were die hard Catholics so I got dragged through their churches as a kid till my mom got full custody. Took me years to decouple the shame no matter how much I told myself there shouldn't be any shame attached.

I expect it's a ditto feeling for a lot of people who aren't religious but were raised in or near more puritan religions.

[Canarr]

From what I understand, in reality this had the effect of actually making it harder for law enforcement to track / prosecute sex trafficking while leaving sex workers without a safer method of screening clients. Craigslist / Backpage gave law enforcement not only digital footprints to rely on but also an overview to monitor trafficking networks and activity levels.

Exactly. Sex trafficking isn't disappearing just because Craigslist and Backpage don't allow sex (worker) ads anymore, so that was kind of counterproductive. Not to mention causing loads of problems for legitimate sex workers - and, apparently, restaurant owners.

Don't underestimate religious conservative pearl clutching. Remember, the whole country was traumatized by Janet Jackson's nipple tassel. Hell, Utah declared porn was a public health crisis and that was only a couple years ago. America's puritan streak of sex shaming runs deeper than just political expediency. Sure, some people use it as such but it only works because there are enough true believers to rally behind it. Sex and shame are pretty deeply tied together in America's overall psyche and while those roots are from religion, it permeates further than it appears on the surface.

While you're certainly right about America's issues with puritanism, I'm inclined to agree with D_Yeti_Esquire: the fact that anti-prostitution activists are seemingly entirely unable to accept the existence of voluntary sex work is definitely part of the problem. You get that in Germany (where prostitution is legal) as well: activists equate prostitution with sex trafficking and simply do not accept the agency of sex workers - they are either coerced, or manipulated, or suffer from mental health issues. Because a sane woman certainly wouldn't "sell herself", right?

It is always interesting to see groups who are fundamentally at odds with each other - pearl-clutching conservatives and anti-prostitution feminists - agree on a topic for completely different reasons.

[MadMike]

OK, the whole issue of whether prostitution should be legal or not aside, how the hell is this policy even legal? I'm pretty certain that discrimination based on gender has been illegal for several decades.

Not only that, simply assuming a woman is a hooker can land you in hot water. Some idiot who was working at a truck stop found out the hard way awhile back. I have a female friend who used to be a truck driver, and one day when she was driving, she stopped at a truck stop, as truckers often do.

As soon as she walked in, the guy working there told her that he didn't want "her kind" in his store. She asked him what she meant by "her kind", and he told her, "Lot lizards."

She walked out and called her supervisor what happened. Her supervisor was PISSED. He called the store manager and told him what happened, and the employee was fired on the spot.

[D_Yeti_Esquire]

It's not legal.

But maybe the issue here more than anything is women have started doing the same thing towards men so it may be the "right to choose your clientele" is less about equality than it used to be since messing with it over here brings up issues with it over there.

As far as women's only gyms, women's only clubs, women's only workspaces - that's all been on the rise recently. That doesn't even get into women's only festivals and all the way down to women's only showings of films. Yea the dude's were stupid to protest that stuff, but on the surface of the issue they're not wrong.

Not saying that to bag on it - I just think the old school (where I come from) interpretation of discrimination is discrimination is sorta dead. The new school seems to be pretty OK with discriminatory behavior as long as it doesn't rub them the wrong way. Essentially the coupling of perceived "power" which is always imbalanced in one direction OK's anything.

But insomuch as this person is doing specific things with men or women, that's not even atypical for New York at this point. And if an AG chooses to go after this case it's going to validate cases against places like The Wing, The Riveter,etc. Those types of establishments used to be power hubs for men keeping their power but were broken up a long time ago. The only reason the other-side equivilent hasn't really gotten slammed yet, is there's not a huge body of current case law so it's easier to let it slide than it would be otherwise.

[telecom_goddess]

this whole thing is a slippery slope because besides the CIS gendered people, you've got trans, those who don't identify as male or female, or some other gender queer setup. What about them?

[AccountingDrone]

I can see the side of both people, as a woman wanting to sit at the bar to grab a fast meal without soaking up a 2top that could be wanted by a couple for dinner, and by the bar for not wanting hookers bothering their cutstomers.

But then again, as a single woman sitting at a bar waiting for my boyfriend who was tendin to get off work, I was more than once sent drinks and offers, including one memorable one by a guy with his son who wanted to hire me to break in his virgin son ... yikes. Sitting at a bar alone after doing my sound check when I was in a band *always* got me hit on by men, and I broke more than one kneecap sitting there minding my own business [I was working a a machinist at the time, and had steel toed sneakers that I frequently wore because I did my sound checks right after getting off work and didn't bother to change out of my work clothes. When portuned, I would tell the guy or guys no, if they persisted I would toss whatever shot I was drinking in their face, third strike and you are out was a steel toed sneaker to the kneecap. I will also say that the bike gang members and gang bangers at the scummy holes we played at took no for an answer, the asshats tended to be the college students and yuppies at the slightly better venues. I much preferred playing biker bars despite the chicken wire between us and the audience =) ]

[Canarr]

this whole thing is a slippery slope because besides the CIS gendered people, you've got trans, those who don't identify as male or female, or some other gender queer setup. What about them?

I'm thinking they are few enough in number to not warrant separate consideration for the restaurant ownders. If they're willing to alienate the women legitimately wanting to eat at the bar, then they're not going to worry about a handful of trans people.