state prisons finally forced to take action

[Slytovhand]

Well, BK, I'm going to have a difference of opinion with the UN as well.

You see, I don't see that being born into a physical body with a couple of arms, a couple of legs, and a head with a brain in it is sufficient to warrant 'special' treatment all on it's own. (to be more PC.. to have a certain DNA pattern!)

To me, 'rights' need to be preserved to be granted. Just breathing should not automatically entitle you to them... after all, they don't with dogs, cats, fish, mice, cochroaches, etc... (and, when people start going off at 'Animal Rights', they're just saying they think humans are more important than our animal bretheren...).

No - your actions define what a 'human' ought to be - not a genetic makeup. Being a 'human' should be certain type of special.. special enough that it makes a difference. Throw away that specialness - throw away your rights.

And, on a slight tangent, 'doing something with your time' while in jail - even if it's becoming a major human rights activist, does not justify a person's mass murders, serial raping, etc etc.. I know, some people will want to make some sort of claim about 'the person has learnt their lesson, look what they've done'.... no - they need to take responsibility for what they have done, and who they have harmed.


Even more tangiental... people really don't seem to have a lot of respect for laws, governments etc, and that's where a lot of problems come from. It seems that while we are willing to have a 'respect needs to be earned' attitude to other people, that doesn't seem to apply to laws, lawmakers and governments....


GITMO - totally different kettle of fish to what I'm talking about. Politically and ethically. Governments do not get to hold people indefinitely just because they are at war with them. 'Enemy combatants' crap... they're POW's and as such, get better treatment than what was shown to them! (you know - Geneva Convention, and all that??) /rant

[BlaqueKatt]

So kind of like a mini-U.S. in degree of human rights violations, eh?

Amnesty international actually gives the US a very favorable report on human rights-the only things they criticize in their 2008 report is GITMO(which has since been ordered to be closed by executive order of president Obama, and the detainees- transferred, brought to trial, or released) and the death penalty

[MadMike]

I am very glad to hear you say that, DrFaroohk. I'm also glad that this means you have taken the time to read and memorize the local, state, and federal criminal law to ensure that you know what laws affect you daily. And I'm glad that you have also found time to study all of the relevant case law that affects all of those laws. And I'm really happy that you are able to do all of the above before you consider visiting a friend in the neighboring town, since they have their own laws that you can violate. And I'm even gladder that you have found a way to avoid violation of every single one of them.

And not to mention that he's somehow learned what every single person who has or will commit a crime looks like, and somehow found a way to look nothing like any of those people. Mistaken identity, anyone? Oh, and also to be clairvoyant enough to know when and where every single crime will take place, so as not to be nailed for simply being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

[MadMike]

If you intentionally go out of your way to violate another person's 'basic human rights', then you lose your own.

Yes, but there's also such a thing as "cruel and unusual punishment", which the U.S. supposely frowns on. We can't simply allow people to be raped and murdered as "punishment." Yes, I know a lot of states have the death penalty, which some people regard as murder, but that's a topic for another thread.

[DrFaroohk]

And not to mention that he's somehow learned what every single person who has or will commit a crime looks like, and somehow found a way to look nothing like any of those people. Mistaken identity, anyone? Oh, and also to be clairvoyant enough to know when and where every single crime will take place, so as not to be nailed for simply being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

How often does that really happen? That some completely, 100% innocent person gets wrongly accused and sent to prison? I know it DOES happen...but really how much? Of course not every single person is prison deserves to be there, but for the most part if you're in prison you deserve to be. Even some of the innocent people, just for being stupid.

I got into some hot water with the police a few years ago. A friend of mine had broken into some place and robbed it. I had not one thing to do with it, but because it's a small town and I was known to hang out with this person and I had been seen with them earlier that evening I was under extremely close scrutiny by the police for a good long while. And ya know what? It was my own damn fault. I didn't do anything wrong, and I really shouldn't have had to put up with the harassment I got from the police, but I still should have known better than to associate myself with a known criminal.

This applies to both being wrongly jailed and raped while in there. No it's not right. Being raped is never right. Neither is being harassed by the police when you're innocent, and neither is having your brand new TV stolen out of the back of your car because you left it unattended and in plain view. But if people took a little personal responsibility and never put themselves in that situation to begin with, they'd have nothing to complain about.

[Flyndaran]

Amnesty international actually gives the US a very favorable report on human rights-the only things they criticize in their 2008 report is GITMO(which has since been ordered to be closed by executive order of president Obama, and the detainees- transferred, brought to trial, or released) and the death penalty

I'm sure that the U.S. does well when dealing with american citizens. It just sucks royally when dealing with what are considered illegal immigrants and vaguely suspected terrorists.
As to gitmo, and its worse brother camp X-ray, Obama still refuses to prosectute all those that comitted murder and torture.

[Lace Neil Singer]

Not to mention the fact that war crimes only count when committed by the other side... no-one got smacked for the overkill of dropping two atomic bombs on Japan, and to make things fair, the blitzing of Dresden.

[BlaqueKatt]

As to gitmo, and its worse brother camp X-ray, Obama still refuses to prosectute all those that comitted murder and torture.

Wasn't aware he had that power(he's not a prosecutor, and not a member of JAG), and I seem to remember about 20 people being courts Marshaled over it.

[MadMike]

How often does that really happen? That some completely, 100% innocent person gets wrongly accused and sent to prison? I know it DOES happen...but really how much?

You've admitted that it does happen. Even once is too much.

[DrFaroohk]

Yes, but that's not really what this is about. Some other people are making it sound like 90 percent of everyone in prison is innocent of any crime whatsoever. I really have no idea what the statistics are, and there's probably no way to tell, except my pessimistic nature which tells me that probably 90 percent of the people are actually guilty, another 9 percent are guilty by association or technicality, and the final 1 percent actually had nothing at all to do with the crime they are in for.

Isn't that one of those "logical fallacy" type things? Where you take the exception to something and argue it like its the rule?

[BroomJockey]

9 percent are guilty by association or technicality, and the final 1 percent actually had nothing at all to do with the crime they are in for.

First off, America has Freedom of Association. There's no such thing as "legal guilt by association." It's not illegal to be friends with a drug dealer, as long as you're not taking drugs, or buying/selling them yourself. So if someone's in jail only because they were friends with a criminal, that's a miscarriage of justice.

Secondly, 1%, approximately 1 in every 142 Americans are in jail. That's about 2,112,676 people. 1% of that is 21,126. That's enough to fill a small city. A small city's worth of people are in jail for doing nothing wrong. And that's acceptable to you?

[DrFaroohk]

There's plenty of guilt by association laws. Such as in a traffic stop - in many places, if one person in the vehicle has illegal drugs, then everyone in the car is charged with possession. Go ahead and hang out with dealers if you want to, but don't cry about it when you're charged with a crime later on - even if you are innocent. I didn't want fleas either, but when I was lying with dogs the other day....well you know how it is.

[blas87]

So just because my boyfriend has DUIs on his record and is a HTO, that means that I'm a constant drunk driver and HTO as well?

[DrFaroohk]

I don't even know what HTO is.

I don't make the laws, I just try to follow them. We're getting off topic here. I'm just saying - stay the hell out of prison if you don't want to get raped. The majority of people have the choice - the number of people incarcerated, for absolutely no reason other than they are either framed or just look like someone - is a very small number. Most of them have a choice and they choose to be in prison.

[AdminAssistant]

I don't even know what HTO is.

I had to look it up: Habitual Traffic Offender

Guilt by association is wrong...one of many things that needs to be reformed in our justice system.