state prisons finally forced to take action

[linguist]

you didn't actually answer my question, so here it is again: how do you separate those who are wrongly convicted from those who's convictions are valid? put another way, would you really rather see an innocent die or be raped in prison than see that a guilty person be given some measure of safety while serving their sentence? if so, how do you justify it to the innocent person's family who have been torn apart once by a false conviction, only to be torn apart once more by their loved ones death, or having to deal with the psychological ramifications of their rape?

[BroomJockey]

If Jeffry Dahmer were still alive, would you people be rioting for his safety and comfort in prison? Really?

Pretty sure you just committed several logical fallacies in there, but we'll focus on this one, the least emotionally invested one.

This, is a strawman fallacy. "Look, this is what you're saying, and that's just wrong!" We aren't advocating any individual's safety and comfort, we're talking about not inflicting unmetred, unsupervised abuse upon people who may or may not have earned it. Remember, despite your fantasy about the big tough guy being someone's bitch, and raped repeatedly, thus learning a lesson about how horrible he was, someone big and tough out here doesn't get turned in to a 97 lbs weakling in the joint. He's going to be the one doing the raping in jail. He'll be smart enough to make deals with anyone who actually manages to be a threat to him. The jailhouse justice you envision rarely happens.

[DesignFox]

I wasn't bringing medieval torture into the argument because that just isn't done, anymore. And if any person had been convicted of doing such things to another, I would give them the death penalty. Torture like that is also never ok.

I was just stating that rape is a serious and horrendous act. I don't condone it for any reason. I find this to be a heinous crime, because it can not only be horrificly violent, but it does the victim a lot of mental and emotional damage. To me, mental and emotional damage is often harder to fix than the physical stuff. A crime like that, that damages your psyche along with your physical body is a lot worse and deserves harsher punishment. I don't think any person deserves to have their entire emotional, social, physical, everything violated in such a manner.

I tend to forget we're very literal around here....this only being written word and all.

[AdminAssistant]

I think what this really boils down to is that our prison system is broken. Non-violent offenders shouldn't be put in the same facility as violent ones.

[blas87]

This is the last time I'm going to say it, because obviously having the minority opinion around here means everything I write is going to be skipped and made out to make me a monster.

I do not think every single individual who is incarcerated deserves to be beaten, raped, or killed. For the second (or this third?) time, I UNDERSTAND that there are flaws in the justice system, and that people who have committed minor crimes somehow end up mixed up with the big scum. I understand that some of those people in prison for something like fraud or whatever have you, end up being raped or beaten. I DO NOT condone or advocate such behavior.

I'm sorry you find me to be such a monster for thinking that murderers, rapists, and child molestors shouldn't be cared about. Personally, I think everyone who riots for sex offender and rapist and murderers' rights just add to the reason why they keep offending once they are out of jail/prison. By thinking that we as a society need to care about and treat these people like they are total law abiding citizens who have never done anything wrong to another, that we should give them any job they want and forget about what they've done and turn a blind eye to the victims that they hurt.......not forcing these people to take personal responsibility for what they have done and to deal with the shame and humiliation that comes with comitting serious crimes, of course that really helps them re-offend! It's not their fault, it's our fault for being mean to them.

It's absurd that anyone would think that I condone and advocate that rape is ok because I think nothing of the guy who killed my cousin getting raped in prison, or even being happy about it if it were true. Ok, sorry, my bad. I hope he gets to sleep in a nice warm, fluffy bed with fluffy pillows and gets to eat all his square meals of the day and gets to exercise and go to college and be an ideal inmate. Yes, I want him to get out, and I want to give him a hug and tell him "It's ok that you killed my cousin and her baby. I forgive you! You're not a bad person! People like me are the reason you did what you did and why you once felt you couldn't be helped. I'm so sorry. No go, run free, my butterfly!"

Ok, back on topic. Maybe I took it to far. Originally, this thread wasn't about the serious slimeballs in prison. Maybe we should just take it back there before everyone (if they already don't) pictures me with a Hitler moustache and my right arm flaring out at everyone.

[BroomJockey]

Maybe we should just take it back there before everyone (if they already don't) pictures me with a Hitler moustache and my right arm flaring out at everyone.

Godwin'd. Nice.

[linguist]

I do not think every single individual who is incarcerated deserves to be beaten, raped, or killed. For the second (or this third?) time, I UNDERSTAND that there are flaws in the justice system, and that people who have committed minor crimes somehow end up mixed up with the big scum. I understand that some of those people in prison for something like fraud or whatever have you, end up being raped or beaten. I DO NOT condone or advocate such behavior.

this is twice now that you've ignored my question about those wrongfully convicted of more serious crimes. would you advocate the same harsh treatment of them, since in the eyes of the law they are rapists or murderers, though they've done nothing?

[blas87]

You're asking me how we fix a flawed justice system?

I don't honestly know how to tell you. For one, we could quit slapping a sex offender label on every guy who gets caught peeing outside of a bar on a Saturday night, or an 18 year old guy having sex with his 16 year old girlfriend. Number two, I guess we'd have to have better defense attorneys and do better at selecting non-biased jurers. We'd also have to have better police and detectives to properly investigate and ensure that not every single rape case is a girl screaming rape because her boyfriend dumped her or someone wanting attention......there's a whole list of things that would need to be fixed. Is it ever going to happen? I don't know. I'd like to know.

I would hate to see someone wrongfully charged and thrown in the clinker. But then there's people who without a shadow of doubt have killed someone, and they deserve every ounce of pain they endure.

[BroomJockey]

You're asking me how we fix a flawed justice system?
<snip>

I would hate to see someone wrongfully charged and thrown in the clinker. But then there's people who without a shadow of doubt have killed someone, and they deserve every ounce of pain they endure.

Actually, that wasn't his question. His question was, given the fact the system is flawed, and innocent people are sent to prison, with every appearance of being guilty of rape, murder, etc. how can you justify the belief that it doesn't matter if rapists and murderers are raped and brutalised in prison, since until the conviction is over-turned, there's no way to tell who is who. After all, if they're put in jail, it's because it was "beyond a reasonable doubt." Since there's no way to tell, you are, in effect, advocating the rape of potentially innocent people. What would you do after they're found innocent and released from prison? Apologize and offer a hearty handshake and go "sorry 'bout the prison rape! But hey, bright side, you're free now!" ? If you admit that rape is a bad thing for normal people to go through, which you have, and you admit that the system is flawed, sending innocent people to jail, which you seem to have, then I don't see how you can honestly, with full self-inspection, condone a path which pretty much guarantees that someone not "worthy" of the punishment is prison-raped.

[blas87]

I am really hoping you are not insinuating the guy I keep bringing up may, in some way, be innocent.

[BroomJockey]

I am really hoping you are not insinuating the guy I keep bringing up may, in some way, be innocent.

No. And you've still failed to answer the question. Given the possibility that some of these rapists and murderers are in fact not rapists and murderers, can you condone their rape? Not in a specific case. In general. Because when you get to specific cases, that's revenge. Not justice.

[linguist]

i give you the case of timothy cole. convicted of rape in 1985 based largely on the eyewitness testimony of the woman he supposedly raped. she believed beyond a shadow of a doubt that he was the one who raped her. earlier this year he was cleared of all charges based on dna evidence and the confession of the actual rapist. the problem is that tim cole died in prison in 1999 of an asthma attack, one of several life-threatening attacks he had while serving his sentence. he was just a rapist who didn't deserve adequate medical attention, right? wrong.

how do you propose now to compensate his family for the death of their son, brother, friend? for all the years they lost based on a false conviction?

[blas87]

I guess the answer would be no, then. I don't know several men in prison. I only know two, one of which is a man who slaughtered a bunch of deer hunters a few years back, including a former classmate of mine and one of my cousin's high school boyfriends. He went on a shooting rampage when told to get off of the hunters' private property, and despite this being a rather conservative part of Wisconsin, there were plenty of people rioting for his freedom because the people he killed were mean nasty white men who were teasing and taunting him for being Asian.

I don't know the statistics of how many of these people have been proven to be actually innocent, after months or years of incarceration, or how many (in states with capital punishment) have been wrongfully put to death.

That's all I can really say about that. Sure, I'd feel bad if someone who was eventually proven to be innocent suffered a fate such as that, but then again, how many people get out of jail/prison because of good behavior, and then go do the same thing again?

I have already admitted to taking this thread in the wrong direction, and a nerve struck me when I first read this thread and blew it completely out of proportion and started talking about an entire different group of criminals, instead of people who committed more petty crimes. I have already admitted that I don't feel anyone who stole a car or committed fraud should be raped or tortured. My hatred and anger is obviously geared in the wrong place for this type of thread, because I have nothing to add when it comes to petty criminals.

I wonder how many people on this board would ever take a job as a prison guard. I sure as heck wouldn't, even if I were a man and built like my father or my boyfriend. I sure as heck wouldn't go out of my way to stop a group of guys from gangbanging someone....that's a very dangerous job, one I'd hate to have. I'd hate to have to shut the door and ignore what was going on, but I'd be even more afraid to try to break it up and end up getting my ass handed to me instead. Although, more to the point, I guess I'm also not a sick bastard who would rape inmates and abuse my authority, but that's just me. Those guards that Katt originally wrote about belong in prison themselves.

Edit to respond to linguist: I really don't know how to respond to that. That is very sad that after over 20 years, he was proven to be innocent. I don't know what could be done for his family and friends. Certainly a letter wouldn't do anything....and I don't exactly know if anything is ever done in circumstances such as these. I can only suggest the baby steps I listed above. There are obviously lots of issues with the justice system.....why was the DNA evidence proving his innocence not around in 1985? Why now? It's not like 1985 was the stone age. Are you truly saying that he was never given any medical attention while incarcerated? While it may be true, I find it very hard to believe. Prison accomodations aren't what they were years ago. I cannot see inmates being refused medical treatment because of personal beliefs of staffing.

[linguist]

There are obviously lots of issues with the justice system.....why was the DNA evidence proving his innocence not around in 1985? Why now? It's not like 1985 was the stone age. Are you truly saying that he was never given any medical attention while incarcerated? While it may be true, I find it very hard to believe. Prison accomodations aren't what they were years ago. I cannot see inmates being refused medical treatment because of personal beliefs of staffing.

1985 was the stone age for dna testing. it was the first year forensic dna testing was introduced, and courts refused to accept it as a new and unproven technology. the first time dna was used successfully in a criminal case was in 1987, when it was used to convict a florida rapist. even after it became widely used, lubbock prosecutors actively opposed efforts to use it to exonerate cole, as they believed they had an open and shut case based on eyewitness testimony. and let's face it, no prosecutor likes to have their convictions overturned.

as for medical treatment, asthma, even severe asthma, is relatively easily controlled with adequate medical attention. there's no reason to die of it if you are being given such attention. the fact that cole had at least 3 separate incidents in which he was found unconscious in his cell (the last one being the one that killed him), makes it pretty clear he wasn't receiving the necessary medical attention.

[blas87]

Then it was obviously due to personal beliefs of the staffing, or in a better word, negligence.

Although it doesn't compare to a life and death situation, it's sort of similar to a pharmacist refusing to fill a birth control prescription because of his/her religion or personal beliefs. The guards on duty had no business being guards if they despised criminals (or in this case accused criminals) so much. Which is another reason you won't find me working in a prison, not the main reason, but another reason.