Seatbelt Laws

[crazylegs]

Freedom comes with a cost.

But at what line should the Government allow that cost to affect the populus? The Governments main role is to protect it's electorate, so by doing things to keep them alive (such as making fuses a legal requirement in an electrical appliance, making drink driving illegal, or a requirement to wear a seatbelt) makes perfect sense.

[Flyndaran]

But at what line should the Government allow that cost to affect the populus? ....

That's the real question. I prefer freedom to trump anything that doesn't affect others. Seatbelt law only protect the one wearing it, so I don't like them. Your freedom/security line may be somewhere else.

[crazylegs]

Seatbelt law only protect the one wearing it,

What if there are others in the car who are wearing their belt? If a car rolls anything loose suddenly flies around, at which point said unbelted person does affect others.

What about the person who finds said unbelted person on the tarmac after a head on collision and they've been thrown through the windscreen? Who pays for their counselling?

What about the person who's in the back seat and slams against the person in the front seat?

Seatbelts don't just protect the person who's wearing them, as I can show above.

[Flyndaran]

What if there are others in the car who are wearing their belt? If a car rolls anything loose suddenly flies around, at which point said unbelted person does affect others.

What about the person who finds said unbelted person on the tarmac after a head on collision and they've been thrown through the windscreen? Who pays for their counselling?

What about the person who's in the back seat and slams against the person in the front seat?

Seatbelts don't just protect the person who's wearing them, as I can show above.

What if a really fat man falls on you? That means obesity affects others... Oh wait a minute, that's silly.
How unlikely of circumstance will you mentally gymnastic your way through to bolster your argument?

[BroomJockey]

How unlikely of circumstance will you mentally gymnastic your way through to bolster your argument?

I don't see anything in there that was unlikely. Unbelted passenger in back seat? Dismembered crash victim?

[DesignFox]

What if a really fat man falls on you? That means obesity affects others... Oh wait a minute, that's silly.
<snip>

In light of all the arguments going on about obesity on this board, I'm sorry, that statement made me ROFLMAO!

[joe hx]

in ohio, if an adult is driving, only the people in the front have to wear seatbelts. if you're under 18, everyone does.

(that's actually a trick question on the written driving test. it's multiple choice and asks who has to wear their seatbelt. options included "everyone" (which is the wrong answer) and "just in the front" plus of course two obviously wrong answers)

my attitude is if we expect the gov't to take care of our roads, then they have the right to tell us how to use them.

[Flyndaran]

...
What about the person who finds said unbelted person on the tarmac after a head on collision and they've been thrown through the windscreen? Who pays for their counselling?
...

I don't see anything in there that was unlikely. Unbelted passenger in back seat? Dismembered crash victim?

Who pays for their counselling? You don't think that's a bit silly? You don't see that as hysterical reaching?
The point is that seatbelts save those wearing them. That's their purpose. I would need some serious statistics to really believe that flying bodies present a real risk significant enough to require lawmaking in and of themselves.

[crazylegs]

How unlikely of circumstance will you mentally gymnastic your way through to bolster your argument?

None of these are unlikely in the slightest. Have a chat with your local PD, FD or ambulance service and ask them how unlikely they are. You will be unpleasantly suprised.

Who pays for their counselling? You don't think that's a bit silly? You don't see that as hysterical reaching?

Not at all. I'm aware that not everybody is as robust as yourself, I'm also aware that one person I'm know of required counselling after *watching* CPR, so finding a blodied body on the road after coming through a windscreen isn't too much of a leap.

Thing is finding a body is, more often than not, more traumatic than being told to go to one because there is no time to mentally prepare yourself, so if a member of the public who has little to no experience of traumatic death finds said body they're going to freak a lot more than the paramedic who pronounces life extinct.

Like I said before (I think) each fatality on the roads costs the UK Government £1,000,000, so the effects are far more reaching than the cop who closes the road and the paramedic who scrapes the deceased off the tarmac.

[Flyndaran]

...
Not at all. I'm aware that not everybody is as robust as yourself, I'm also aware that one person I'm know of required counselling after *watching* CPR, so finding a blodied body on the road after coming through a windscreen isn't too much of a leap.
....

If you are willing to make things illegal because of the potential harm done to witnesses, then you must want a whole boat load of other things barred.
Even civil suits aren't allowed because of simply witnessing incidents.

Since having obese relative die is traumatic, then maybe obesity itself should be outlawed.
How about watching a sky diver hit the ground?
Watching a motorcycle driver die from a collision that wouldn't have harmed a car rider/driver.
Etc. beyond belief

[Boozy]

I don't buy the psychological trauma argument either.

Yesterday, I saw an 80 year-old woman in Daisy Dukes. I'll admit, I was deeply disturbed. But that's not grounds to outlaw short shorts for the elderly.

[PepperElf]

late coming in, but I'm very much for seat-belt use

You don't always know when things are going to happen.

I was in the car with dad one winter. The roads were covered in snow and he got hit by a crosswind. He tried to adjust but the back end kept fishtailing and in a matter of seconds we went off the road to the right, into a ditch and flipped.

If we hadn't been wearing seatbelts God knows what would have broken on us - at least we'd have both gone through the windshield. Instead we both walked away. My arm was sore the next day.

I'd rather have a sore arm over a broken spine any day.



Another story: I don't really know what happened, just that one of the girls I knew in my military school had a bad mark on her neck and upper chest. Turned out it was a rub-rash from the seat belt. And as she said, "I'd rather have this mark than be dead".


And psychological trauma. That I do buy.
One of my classmates in the military use to be an EMT before he enlisted. He was the first responder to a car accident. The victim died there in front of him, awake until the end.

Classmate: He said to me, "I know I'm going to die". I still have nightmares about it.

to me that says it all.


I don't know if a seatbelt would have done anything in that last incident, but it does tell me that EMTs and first responders do have issues from seeing nasty things.

[BroomJockey]

I don't buy the psychological trauma argument either.

Yesterday, I saw an 80 year-old woman in Daisy Dukes. I'll admit, I was deeply disturbed. But that's not grounds to outlaw short shorts for the elderly.

That's a little different. And even still, you might be fine finding someone at an accident scene, someone whose head has been reduced to hanging on by a few flaps of skin, blood gurgling out the stump, the body still twitching from the last few electrical impulses shooting around in the muscles, but that doesn't mean everyone is.

[Slytovhand]

Pepper, you've just reminded me of a story... true as well!

A few years ago, I was sitting at my computer as my friends walked in, so my back was turned as I was doing whatever (yes, my doors were open - I'm trusting and naive )

Anyway, without turning, I ask "How are you?". She says "Turn around"... her face is swollen black and blue, and there's a massive pile of brusing over her chest/shoulder. Her face hit the steering wheel, and the brusing on the chest shoulder is from the force of the seatbelt digging in. She naturally needed massaging of her back and shoulders pretty bad from the whiplash... And her big burly boyfriend was getting death stares when they went shopping (some people always assume the worst!).

Obviously, with those sort of injuries with a seatbelt, I'd be hating to think what would have happened without one!

Because of this, should the be legalised?? Well, given the choice between 'personal freedom' and having her still alive today... lock in option B, thanks Eddie! Some freedoms have already been taken away from us (they're called 'laws'), and we tolerate them for whatever reason... I see this as so minor and insignificant a one that it's a no-brainer.

[MadMike]

Getting thrown from a vehicle is almost a myth. It's far too rare to really consider it.

I happened to my one friend. It was me, him, his brother, and one of our other friends. We were in a jeep on the way back from a concert, and since it was a nice day, we had the top off. My friend's brother was driving, I was riding shotgun so I could give directions, and my friend and the other guy were in the back. We all had our seatbelts on, except for my friend, who didn't believe in them.

On the way back, it started raining, which was really fun for us since we had the top off. When we got close to home, we were going around a curve, when the jeep suddenly started slipping and sliding. It slammed into the guard rail a few times before it finally came to rest. I climbed out to see how bad the jeep was damaged, when I heard one of the other guys screaming his head off. My friend, who wasn't wearing his sealt belt, got thrown out of the jeep, and was now lying face-down on the road. Thankfully, he came out of it with nothing more than a concussion, and a few bumps, scrapes, and bruises.

That aside, while I think it's stupid not to wear a seatbelt, I don't think it's any of the government's business whether someone does or doesn't. It's not hurting anyone else, like for example, if someone drives too fast or gets hammered before getting behind the wheel. I understand the argument about it tying up medical resources, making insurance rates go up for everyone else, etc., but where do we draw the line? Should we also ban anything that's dangerous, like rock climbing or skydiving? Or should we ban anything unhealthy like tobacco, alcohol (I believe we tried that once with disastrous results), or junk food? Where does it end?