Another form of death penalty

[Flyndaran]

Impossible then, impossible now, yes, impossible forever? Maybe not. We've seen some wicked advances in neuro-interfaces recently, and it will only improve.

As to why not sticking it in his nose, the information storage density in the brain is higher than any currently available storage medium. The human brain can hold Petabytes of information. By using the brain to store, you'd have massive efficiency gains.

Not really. You assume that we would deveop not only a way to produce perfectly functional neural based technology that not only is better than the alternative but able to seamlessly integrate into human brain tissue and takes up the place of regular tissue removing memories only even though that isn't the way that brains work.
I say impossible only to that last bit. Brains don't work that way.

[Slytovhand]

Isn't this the other thread????

I thought this was about being able to mind-wipe someone as a form of punishment?

And, given that some drugs we have today can affect a person's memories and recall ability, and that we are capable of creating false memories (happens all the time... and by accident! Who said 'witness accounts are the most unreliable evidence'??). Not to mention hypnosis.. and brainwashing techniques...

I'd say this level of 'sci-fi' is more on the softer side than the harder.

[BroomJockey]

Isn't this the other thread????

Thread drift's a bitch, eh?

[Slytovhand]

Thread drift's a bitch, eh?

I love chocolate...

[BroomJockey]

The average rainfall in the Amazon basin is the square root of Transformers was good, since Optimus got to kick an insane amount of ass, but I hated when Trudeau capped the music rate.

[Flyndaran]

Isn't this the other thread????

I thought this was about being able to mind-wipe someone as a form of punishment?

And, given that some drugs we have today can affect a person's memories and recall ability, and that we are capable of creating false memories (happens all the time... and by accident! Who said 'witness accounts are the most unreliable evidence'??). Not to mention hypnosis.. and brainwashing techniques...

I'd say this level of 'sci-fi' is more on the softer side than the harder.

No its not. Screwing up the formation of short term to long term memory or creating false memories of a personally uninportant nature or messing up the ability to recall temporarily due to drugs is not erasing fundamental memories. Real world retrograde amnesia which is what the op suggests is not a physical issue. It's a purely psychological one.
Real long term memories are physically represented by the structure of the brain. You can't change them without wrecking that structure.
The op's concept is on the very soft side of sci fi.

[BroomJockey]

Real world retrograde amnesia which is what the op suggests is not a physical issue. It's a purely psychological one.
Real long term memories are physically represented by the structure of the brain. You can't change them without wrecking that structure.

Anything that occurs in an organism naturally can be replicated mechanically. It's simply a matter of figuring out the biological mechanisms present behind it. Since it's kind of unethical to test people in attempting to induce amnesia in a controlled setting, it's not likely to be discovered on purpose any time soon. So, since amnesia occurs in "the wild," then it can be induced in a laboratory setting. They can already institute a very crude form using ECT. It's dangerous as hell, but it works. Sorta. But like I said, they can't do tests on hundreds of people.

Also, since the brain naturally creates pathways to store memory, that too can be induced. It's simply a matter of finding the proper way to induce it.

[Flyndaran]

Anything that occurs in an organism naturally can be replicated mechanically. It's simply a matter of figuring out the biological mechanisms present behind it. Since it's kind of unethical to test people in attempting to induce amnesia in a controlled setting, it's not likely to be discovered on purpose any time soon. So, since amnesia occurs in "the wild," then it can be induced in a laboratory setting. They can already institute a very crude form using ECT. It's dangerous as hell, but it works. Sorta. But like I said, they can't do tests on hundreds of people.

Also, since the brain naturally creates pathways to store memory, that too can be induced. It's simply a matter of finding the proper way to induce it.

But what I'm saying is that it would require very careful damaging of the fundamental structure of the brain so complex as to be prohibitive. I just can't imagine any such technologically advanced society not already having a much easier and safer way to restrain certain types of bahavior.
For example, it would be orders of magnitude simpler to implant a small computer that shuts down the body of someone about to commit a crime.

Electro-convulsive-therapy is an outmoded grossly ineffective treatment. Let's damage the brain randomly and hope something good comes from it. Not my idea of medicine.

[Savannah]

Sorry to go back to the beginning posts, but it's taken me this long to verbalize why I think this is a terrible idea. My two objections are that 1) it is effectively the same as the death penalty and 2) it is much worse for the family of the accused in the case of an incorrect decision.

It is effectively the same as the death penalty because who I am depends on my memories. If I lose all of my memories, I will be "dead" in the sense that many aspects of my personality, my goals, many of my likes and dislikes will be gone. As stated in the original post:

After all, the person who committed the crime ceases to exist.

If the person ceases to exist, why is this any different from the death penalty? It won't even save money as the exact same appeals will happen and the convict will have to be retrained after the wipe.

I don't see how it's really any worse than the regular DP when it comes to the "criminal"'s family.

Here's how: Say that my little brother is convicted of murder and sentenced to death. After he dies, it comes out that he was innocent. Now, I'm understandably upset, but what is done is done and I will eventually reach some kind of closure. (Hopefully.)

Say that he is instead sentenced to this mind wipe. Afterwards is comes out that he was innocent. Now, not only is my brother dead, but if he is reintroduced to me I have to be around this person who looks exactly like my brother but is not and will never be my brother. Even if he is not reintroduced to me, I know that "he" is still out there somewhere. Not only am I upset that my brother was wrongfully executed, but I can't reach the same kind of closure. Every time I see who he is now I will be reminded of who he was. I will be forever hoping that there is some way to reverse the procedure. Much worse for the "criminal"'s family than the regular death penalty.

[BroomJockey]

If the person ceases to exist, why is this any different from the death penalty?

Because you gain a fully-functioning member of society out of the deal - hopefully.

[Flyndaran]

Because you gain a fully-functioning member of society out of the deal - hopefully.

So not only do we assume an functionally impossible according to moden biology, but we also assume that it has no deleterious side effects?

[BroomJockey]

So not only do we assume an functionally impossible according to moden biology,

Did you miss my post about how they're able to induce retrograde amnesia NOW through electroconvulsive therapy? I think that kind of proves it possible. Nice fail, though.

[Flyndaran]

Did you miss my post about how they're able to induce retrograde amnesia NOW through electroconvulsive therapy? I think that kind of proves it possible. Nice fail, though.

That is haphazard, and causes a whole host of other brain damage. I don't think that in any way proves that individual aspects of that could work on their own. Also it doesn't erase aspects of personality that the OP suggested.

[BroomJockey]

Also it doesn't erase aspects of personality that the OP suggested.

I don't believe that I suggested only certain aspects, but I'll double-check.

Instead of physically killing a person, we induce total, irrevocable amnesia. They remember nothing of who they are or what they've done.

Hrm... Total... irrevocable... nope. Not a hint of a suggestion. And no shit it's dangerous, they're giving the brain a large jolt of electricity directly to it. But science has this stupid tendency to get better at stuff, ya know? So if they can do it in some fashion now, are you saying it's impossible for them to improve?

[Flyndaran]

Hrm... Total... irrevocable... nope. Not a hint of a suggestion. And no shit it's dangerous, they're giving the brain a large jolt of electricity directly to it. But science has this stupid tendency to get better at stuff, ya know? So if they can do it in some fashion now, are you saying it's impossible for them to improve?

I'm just saying that the initial proposition is so incredibly difficult that by the time biology has advanced to the point where memories can be destroyed with precision that we would have much better and more humane methods of behavioral control at our disposal. See my previous idea of computer implast earlier in the thread for an example that wouldn't result in horrible, "Oops we killed an innocent guy." mistakes.