Punishment in Schools

[AdminAssistant]

I know it's stupid for me to think schools, despite claiming to have support for special needs kids, would be able to take their individual issues into account when it comes to punishment. It's easier to tell them to get over who they are, and to mimic Neurotypicals, instead of finding ways of communicating when someone did something wrong, without inducing emotional trauma.

Okay, I will claim ignorance about Asperberger's. I don't really understand it except that I've heard that it's like mild autism. But if you can function in a regular classroom with the "neurotypicals" (huh?) then....I don't understand what the teacher is supposed to do. Keep a checklist? "That's one hour of detention for throwing spitwads...wait....oh, no nevermind, can't do that. Fire away!"

Let me ask you this, what punishment would be appropriate for an AS kid?

[BroomJockey]

the "neurotypicals" (huh?)

In the clinical world, neurotypical means no structural abnormalities in the brain and no behavioural disorders.

Outside the clinical world, 95% of the time it means "YOU can't understand! I'm spechul!" Usually used in a derogatory manner.

[AdminAssistant]

Outside the clinical world, 95% of the time it means "YOU can't understand! I'm spechul!" Usually used in a derogatory manner.

Ah, I see. That's kinda what I thought.

[violetyoshi]

Okay, I will claim ignorance about Asperberger's. I don't really understand it except that I've heard that it's like mild autism. But if you can function in a regular classroom with the "neurotypicals" (huh?) then....I don't understand what the teacher is supposed to do. Keep a checklist? "That's one hour of detention for throwing spitwads...wait....oh, no nevermind, can't do that. Fire away!"

Let me ask you this, what punishment would be appropriate for an AS kid?

I wasn't able to focus in a classroom of "Neurotypicals", they would bully me. Although I think the bully actually was considered special needs under the behavioral disorder category, which seems to me, be the "Don't tell the parents they raised a monster, and instead tell them their child is disordered" category.

Asperger's Syndrome is complex, everyone has different levels of toleration, Some students can be mainstreamed, while others can't. It's common for Aspies to neither fit in the category where they can receive help from special needs, or be mainstreamed. They tend to be bullied in mainstream. Yet they're not retarded enough to get support from special ed.

It wouldn't be so horrible for the teacher to keep a checklist. A part of being a special needs teacher, is understanding you are working with students who have special needs. Students who may not be able to function within a mainstream environment, and that you can't classify a student's grade average, as a measure of their ability to socialize.

If you want more information on Asperger's Syndrome visit:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asperger%27s_syndrome

As far as punishment, most Aspies are intelligent past their age range, just not in aspects of social skills. They don't need to be punished to learn a lesson, they're more like adults. As far as instances of bullying, usually it's in retaliation to being bullied by others, or having their statements misinterpreted by Neurotypical students. Punishing someone with Asperger's Syndrome for not having the intution or theory of mind to understand what their bully is thinking, combined with more of a tendency to feelings like anxiety, is punishing them for not sitting back and letting themselves be abused.

Special needs people need to teach Asperger's Syndrome students how to react in certain social situations, rather than keep blaming them for not having proper social skills. All that results from that, is the logical conclusion that their bully who is not punished, must be exhibiting proper social skills, then you have another bully on your hands. Your telling the Aspie student that nobody will take their concerns regarding bullying seriously, so their only choice is to defend themselves. Then they get punished for going to their last resort, they're being punished for the failure of the special ed system to give them the help they need.

In the clinical world, neurotypical means no structural abnormalities in the brain and no behavioural disorders.

Outside the clinical world, 95% of the time it means "YOU can't understand! I'm spechul!" Usually used in a derogatory manner.

Broomjockey, there is no need for you to be cruel towards people who are Neurodiverse. I don't understand what your gaining from, putting people down, who are struggling in a society that doesn't accept them.

You mention that people who are Neurodiverse use Neurotypical in a derogatory way, while you yourself make a derogatory statement in assuming that everyone who is special needs is not intelligent. Do you have to face daily prejudice, because of who you are? Do you realize how sick it is to pick on people who have suffered being emotionally battered by those they are supposed to emulate?

I don't need to hurt others to feel better about myself, why do you?

[Greenday]

I think Broom is just pointing out that a lot of people aren't even tested and are either self-diagnosing themselves with Aspergers or are just considered to have Aspergers without testing. People are using it as an excuse to do stupid stuff and get away with it, even though they really have nothing mentally wrong with them.

[BroomJockey]

I think Broom is just pointing out that a lot of people aren't even tested and are either self-diagnosing themselves with Aspergers or are just considered to have Aspergers without testing. People are using it as an excuse to do stupid stuff and get away with it, even though they really have nothing mentally wrong with them.

Exactly. And those who are diagnosed are able to find ways to cope in most situations. If it's a major situation, then why aren't the parents getting involved? School is where you learn. It is not a baby-sitting service, it isn't there to deal with every issue that comes up. If it isn't directly related to learning, they shouldn't be doing anything in the classroom about it. Someone's disrupting the class? Boot them out first, to minimize disruption to the other students. Then you figure out why they were disruptive. If it's instructional style or a lack of comprehension, the school should do what it can, and the parents need to pitch in too, in form of assistance with homework, hiring a tutor, or something. If it's that the kid just has behavioural issues, then that is the parents' problem. They need to fix it on their time. The school is there for the benefit of the majority. There simply isn't the funding to individually tailor every situation to every person. If you have a legitimate diagnosis of something like Aspergers, then your parents should be getting the information that you need to do well in school, and in contact with the school to arrange what can be arranged. It's not the school's fault if you freak out about being isolated after you broke the rules, and that your parents refused to do anything with the school about it.

[Pedersen]

Outside the clinical world, 95% of the time it means "YOU can't understand! I'm spechul!" Usually used in a derogatory manner.

Broomjockey, there is no need for you to be cruel towards people who are Neurodiverse. I don't understand what your gaining from, putting people down, who are struggling in a society that doesn't accept them.

Please re-read his statement, and then ask yourself how much of what you read came from what he said, and how much of what you read came from yourself.

He did not say that people do not have special needs. He did not say that people with special needs should be belittled. He did say that, outside of a clinical setting, most times that the special needs cases are brought into a discussion the person bringing them in is abusing the status.

That, unfortunately, seems to be true. Look at the number of cases and ways in which people segregate themselves, and then try to use their own outsider status to get preferential treatment. People tend to raise holy hell about their own special causes so much that the people around them become desensitized to these causes.

Examples of this abound: Racism, sexism, homophobia, religious intolerance, etc. And here you are bringing up another case wherein people are crying out how they need special treatment. Sometimes, this need is legitimate. Most of the time, though, it seems that people make statements like this: "I know I've got disease_that_requires_you_treat_me_special. No, I haven't been diagnosed, I can't afford the testing. But I know I have it."

Those people give lie to the people that actually have the problem. Because so many people engage in that sort of behavior, it makes the rest of us automatically suspicious about anybody's claim. And that results in statements like the one that Broomjockey made.

Don't read too much into what he said. And be careful not to add your own prejudices to it. It's very easy to do.

[violetyoshi]

I think Broom is just pointing out that a lot of people aren't even tested and are either self-diagnosing themselves with Aspergers or are just considered to have Aspergers without testing. People are using it as an excuse to do stupid stuff and get away with it, even though they really have nothing mentally wrong with them.

There's a way of conveying that, like how you did, without resorting to derogatory stereotypes.

Exactly. And those who are diagnosed are able to find ways to cope in most situations. If it's a major situation, then why aren't the parents getting involved? School is where you learn. It is not a baby-sitting service

That's funny. Since the other students who were being praised for babbling during class instead of learning, were practically being babysat. I did the work, I got the grades, I just didn't talk a lot. That was what they considered a major problem, I didn't talk out loud in class, or make a disturbance. I didn't do what most other students would be punished for. Yet I was still threatened with detention for coming in one second after the bell. I guess they have to find something to hold over every student's head.

Please re-read his statement, and then ask yourself how much of what you read came from what he said, and how much of what you read came from yourself...

...Don't read too much into what he said. And be careful not to add your own prejudices to it. It's very easy to do.

I'm female. I know, it's a shock. A woman who plays video games.

[DesignFox]

Also, if a kid is special needs, most public schools have separate classes for those special needs kids.

If a kid is diagnosed with a problem, there are also schools specifically set up to deal with their individual needs.

My brother had all sorts of trouble within the traditional school system. We hired an advocate, sent him through counseling, and now that my family knows what his needs are, they have arranged for him to be taken care of. He goes to a school specifically for special needs kids of all types and ages. He is thriving. (Hell, I'm jealous of some of the awesome programs and opportunities available to those kids that were never available to me as a "normal" kid).

Anyway. Parental involvement is a big part of making sure the school can accomodate their child.

When I worked at summer camp, I'd be LIVID with parents that wouldn't make clear to me what their child's needs were. I had one or two kids that came through with no medical papers, that clearly had mental abnormalities. Had I known beforehand, I could have better prepared my program to work with these children. But noooo. Their kid was special. No need to let me know about anything different....just leave me wondering why they don't get along with the other kids, why they can't follow my instructions, or why they can't seem to perform the same tasks the other kids their age can. Sheesh. It's not like I think your kid has the plague because they've been diagnosed with ADD- tell me what I can do to make their experience better! That's what I'm there for! Trust me when I say, as a counselor, I never wanted to hurt a child's feelings or punish them or scare them or anything! But what I could say to a neurotypical kid, might not be the same thing I could say to a kid with Asperger's. (Yes, I had a camper who was diagnosed with a severe case of Asperger's- once I knew this, AND how to handle it, she was much easier to work with and had a much better camp experience!)

Of course, there was also the one set of parents that sent their asthmatic children to horse camp...and didn't freaking tell the camp the kids had asthma...that was another great one to deal with...

My point is, some teachers may not be prepared to handle a special needs student. Especially if that special need is undiagnosed OR diagnosed, but hidden from the teacher by the parent.

[BroomJockey]

There's a way of conveying that, like how you did, without resorting to derogatory stereotypes.

I didn't make a derogatory stereotype. I said the connotation behind a word. It's like using the word "breeder." Laypersons who use the term "neurotypical," in the vast majority of my experience (hence the NINETY-FIVE, not 100%) use it as a defence. "You're neurotypical. You expect me to conform, because you aren't like me, so you don't know what it's like."

Yet I was still threatened with detention for coming in one second after the bell. I guess they have to find something to hold over every student's head.

So you should be exempt from the rule of being there on time? Why?

I'm female. I know, it's a shock. A woman who plays video games.

Stereotype much?

[anriana]

I'm female. I know, it's a shock. A woman who plays video games.

I don't understand how this is any way related to the post you quoted or the rest of the thread. Pederson's post didn't use any masculine language. Are you saying that as a female gamer you're used to people not believeing you're really female because so many people claim it?

[violetyoshi]

Please re-read his statement, and then ask yourself how much of what you read came from what he said, and how much of what you read came from yourself.

He did not say that people do not have special needs. He did not say that people with special needs should be belittled. He did say that, outside of a clinical setting, most times that the special needs cases are brought into a discussion the person bringing them in is abusing the status.

He instead chose to belittle them himself. Do you understand that it is completely insulting, when people refer to people with special needs as if they are stupid? It's a different way of thinking, seems Neurotypicals just can't handle differences.

Stereotype much?

It's based on other people's stereotype of me, that a woman who plays video games, usually is either a poor gamer, a joke, or only plays kiddy games. You know, the games that don't involve that male ego boost that comes from shooting people and creating violence?

"YOU can't understand! I'm spechul!"

Can someone explain to me how this is not derogatory? How it's not the type of belittling tone most Neurotypicals use, to humilate special needs people?

You know, you really don't know what it's like to be different, to be told the way you are is wrong, and that you need to change what you cannot change, the way your mind works.

All I'm seeing here is infantile "They're getting benefits, I want them too!" type of dialogue here. Your failing to see the real struggles that people with special needs face everyday, and instead are whining about how it hurts your feelings when someone refers to you as if your just a label. Well that's what people with special needs face everyday, and we're not allowed to complain apparently.

So you go ahead broomjockey, continue explaining how unfair it is that there are people in this world different than you, and how they should have to change and conform, even if it causes them extreme emotional pain, just so you feel more comfortable about yourself.

[BroomJockey]

first: Mod note. Please use the multi-quote button. It's located near the "quote" button, and has quotation marks, and a plus sign. Click that by each post you wish to respond to, then click reply when you're finished. Everything will be then listed in the post creation box. It's easier for everyone if your posts are all together, rather than continually broken up. That said... my response!

seems Neurotypicals just can't handle differences.

This is *exactly* the attitude I'm talking about. "You can't understand."

For the record, you know exactly shit-all about me. If you've read my other posts, you'll know a couple physical things about me, and you'll know I'm Canadian. You might think you know about my views on some subjects. If I wanted to self-diagnose, I'd probably have OCD, ADHD, Aspergers, bi-polar, and a few other things to boot. My family has a history of depression, dementia, and more. But I can cope in society, so I don't feel the need to label myself, nor to go to a doctor to get an official label. I feel the only use they have is if you are having trouble coping. Getting a diagnosing is incredibly useful in going "aHA! So that's why it's like that. Now I can fix it, or at least ameliorate it."

Can someone explain to me how this is not derogatory? How it's not the type of belittling tone most Neurotypicals use, to humilate special needs people?

You know, you really don't know what it's like to be different, to be told the way you are is wrong, and that you need to change what you cannot change, the way your mind works.

All I'm seeing here is infantile "They're getting benefits, I want them too!" type of dialogue here. Your failing to see the real struggles that people with special needs face everyday, and instead are whining about how it hurts your feelings when someone refers to you as if your just a label. Well that's what people with special needs face everyday, and we're not allowed to complain apparently.

So you go ahead broomjockey, continue explaining how unfair it is that there are people in this world different than you, and how they should have to change and conform, even if it causes them extreme emotional pain, just so you feel more comfortable about yourself.

I'll respond in reverse order. 1. Society has no obligation to coddle you just because you're mentally different. Minimum obligations are to be met, yes, but it's still up to you to fit yourself to the world. Ask anyone in a wheelchair about the issues they face in society. By bitching about how the rules shouldn't apply, you're setting yourself apart, and then you're bitching because you're being set apart.

As for the infantile comment, *cough ad hominem cough* First, Aspergers isn't special needs. My childhood friend's brother, with severe down's syndrome. HE was special needs. The children who were from abusive homes and taken to foster care, that my mom looked after a weekend a month, they were special needs. Darren, the boy my mom sponsored in a group home for years, who we visited often, who was self-injurious, and couldn't tie his own shoes, and couldn't talk. He was special needs. I have no problem with concessions being made for these people. They're seriously physically, emotionally, or mentally damaged/disabled. From the many posts of the diagnosed Aspies on CS, such as Lace and Mysty, Aspergers sufferers know their issues, can communicate those problems, and can develop coping mechanisms. That's a marked difference. If those coping mechanisms are such as "need to leave the room when things get stressful," then the teacher should be willing to make that accommodation. If it's more systemic, there are specific classes to take in to consideration. If you're in the "neurotypical" class, then you're going to be subject to "neurotypical" rules. Suck it up.

I don't know what it's like to be told to change? I'm left-handed. Granted, that's not on the same scale anymore, but you are aware of how lefties were treated in schools, correct? I know people one generation above me that had their left hand tied to their desk, or were smacked with a ruler every time they touched a pencil with their left hand. I got lucky. I was only "strongly encouraged" to use my right hand. I also read in class all the time, because I already knew the material. Teachers wanted me to stop that too. But I was a reader. They were trying to change my behaviours.

Finally, the opening comment of that snippet. How is it not derogatory? Because I'm slamming one specific group. The people who use "neurotypical." I was unaware that this was a recognized disability group. I'm also including parents who use the term, and special interest groups. The term exists in the medical realm to denote that there are no problems with a person's brain. Thus, logically, if you are not neurotypical, you have a medical issue which should be brought in to line as closely as possible, not catered to because you're unable or unwilling to follow rules. The use of the term by the "neurodiverse" (THERE is a bullshit term for you. It's a brain, not skin colour, the proper term would likely be neuroatypical) is only as a means to set up a barrier and an excuse. A means to say "I'm different for a reason, so you can't discriminate against me." Because gods forbid you just don't think differently. Oh no, you GOTTA have a medical reason. And then no one can hold you responsible for your actions, because they're just persecuting you, since they don't understand.

[Pedersen]

I'm female. I know, it's a shock. A woman who plays video games.

Congratulations. You have a vagina. I have a penis. I fail to see the relevance to the rest of the thread in general, or to what I said in particular.

He instead chose to belittle them himself. Do you understand that it is completely insulting, when people refer to people with special needs as if they are stupid? It's a different way of thinking, seems Neurotypicals just can't handle differences.

Or maybe there's a severe disconnect in reading comprehension. Here, I've quoted his post for your immediate benefit:

In the clinical world, neurotypical means no structural abnormalities in the brain and no behavioural disorders.

Outside the clinical world, 95% of the time it means "YOU can't understand! I'm spechul!" Usually used in a derogatory manner.

As you can see, he has two paragraphs. As a new paragraph indicates a change of topic, we should analyze them both.

The first paragraph indicates a group of people who are neurodiverse, but in a clinical setting. These are people who have specific characteristics in brain chemistry and structure, and may have issues classified as behavioural disorders outside of that clinical setting.

The second paragraph is indicative of people who may be neurodiverse, but outside of that clinical setting. Outside of that setting, we have no justification for stating that someone is neurodiverse unless they present that justification (such as "My doctor says I have Asperger's"). Many people who claim to be neurodiverse openly admit to failing to have ever had a medical practitioner of any sort diagnose them with anything that would make them neurodiverse. We have no reason to label them as anything other than "person who claims to have an affliction, but might well be using that label to garner special sympathy and/or exceptions." And treating people who have done self-diagnosis differently is a disservice to those who have been diagnosed as well as to the recipient of that special treatment.

I can almost hear you asking "Why?" from here. The answer is thus: If we treat them as if they have the disorder (but have only self-diagnosed), then they have no justification to get any help in dealing with the disorder. This allows them to walk all over everybody whether they are neurodiverse or not. It also tarnishes the people who do have the disorder, since people will now have their experiences colored by that person. This leaves future social interactions more limited for the person suffering from the disorder, as people will remember how much they hated dealing with the supposed victim, and therefore avoid this new victim.

That is where Broomjockey's statement originated. He was not stating "how they should have to change and conform". He was berating people who use the labels unfairly. If you have an issue with that, then you are doing your own cause a grave disservice.

You know, you really don't know what it's like to be different, to be told the way you are is wrong, and that you need to change what you cannot change, the way your mind works.

And here we come to the line that made me blow up. In the time it's taken me to write this, I've calmed down. However, the level of anger I got at reading this line was enormous.

I don't know what it's like to be different? With that one statement, you have denied my own experiences with life. You have denied my own inability to deal with the bullies during my school years, my desire to kill myself, the fact that I had the time, method, and place all picked out. You have denied my own issues with my own struggles to fit in, to forgive myself for being different, to learn to even go so far as to like myself. You have chosen to say that I don't know a damned thing about being different.

Guess what? The special needs people might well have gotten nicer treatment than I did at my school. After all, they were kept in a small classroom, with a few specific teachers, kept away from the people who would bully and/or attack them, and generally given better protections than I could get. My problem was being a geek. When I got attacked (physically and verbally), I was told it was my fault. When stuff got stolen from me, I got told it was my fault. When I defended my stuff from getting stolen, I got told it was my fault. When I finally snapped and hit someone back who hit me first, I got told it was my fault.

I don't know what it's like to be different? Sometimes, I wish I didn't know. I then realize that, if I weren't the oddball that I am, I wouldn't be married and have the life that I do. But don't you dare tell me I don't know what it's like. The only reason I'm alive today is because my parents had me convinced that suicide was a coward's way out, and I didn't want to be a coward. Without that little bit of brainwashing, I would have killed myself during high school for one simple reason: I am different, and I couldn't handle it anymore.

Oh, and on a personal note: You might want to reconsider some of your posts. It seems like everywhere here, you feel that you, personally, are under attack. If anything, you'll find the people here are (normally) more accepting of issues. Try stating them in a manner that doesn't come across as "You don't understand, and you can't possibly, and I hate you for it!", and you'll find much greater acceptance.

[shroo]

Seeing how I made it my life goal to harass and torture students I just wanted to add my two cents on things like detention and the like.

While putting students to work as punishment may seem like a great idea, more often than not it may cause bad blood between teacher and student:
"I have to go rake the stupid leaves because stupid Ms. Shroo hates me."
My first year teaching I had a student suspended because she was clicking her pen in class...kind of. According to her that's what happened. This is what actually happened:

Me: "Blah blah Crucible, blah blah hanging, blah blah--"clickclickclickclickclickclick
"--who ever is clicking the pen please knock it off. Blah blah, continues class..."
Her: *disgusted snort followed by slamming of pen and books*
Me: *Angry Teacher Eyes* "Stop. Now." (I didn't know it was her, I didn't know until she started slamming things, but this was not the first time we butted heads).
Her: "Whatever, I wasn't doing anything, why are you babble babble babble--"
Me:"Office."
Her: "I don't fucking believe this!" *Door slam*

Swearing at a teacher=three day suspension. The really funny part? I wasn't going to write her up, or even give her detention. I sent her out so she wouldn't continue to disrupt the class. She pretty much dug her own grave.
My detentions are usually short--"Dude, what was with the attitude today? Ok, well I am sorry you're having a bad day, but don't take it out on me--talk to me before class and we'll work something out. Alright, I won't see you here again, right? Have a good day, see you tomorrow." Nine times out of ten this works. There are always the...lovely....ones who can't seem to understand that their actions have consequences, so sometimes it escalates, but most issues are best taken care of one on one.

I had a student with Aspergers and he knew how to follow the rules--I think I gave him detention once for being late and he came right after school and promised to always be on time or have a pass from then on (and he did!). He was a little disruptive in that he constantly forgot to raise his hand and would always try to launch into long stories, but since it was never anything too distracting I would more often just let that slide.

Hmm...in all of this rambling I think I forgot what my point was. I think it was "every class, teacher, and school climate is different, so it is hard to say x is the best way to "punish" students, but really the most important aspect of any disciplinary action should be communication."