"Mean Mom" jailed

[BroomJockey]

No one is arguing no punishment. That's a strawman argument.
We simply believe that violence is not necessary or useful.

It's not a strawman argument. The fact is, there's limited available options for discipline in public spaces. If you remove physical punishment (nice appeal to emotion, constantly calling it violence, btw) you severely limit the options more than usual. Further, yelling and screaming is just as abusive as excessive physical force. If a child is in no mood to listen to a lecture, then the only options left are isolation, or ignoring. Ignoring a tantruming child in public is a sure way to annoy every person in screaming radius. Isolation, if you're there alone, isn't really much of an option most of the time either. If you're shopping, or at an appointment, or something else you simply cannot pick up your kid and leave. That means you have *no* immediate punishment options.

QED by advocating zero physical punishment, you advocate situationally no punishments.

[Flyndaran]

...
QED by advocating zero physical punishment, you advocate situationally no punishments.

No I am not. It is violence if you did it to an adult. It doesn't magically become non-violent when done to your child.
You are inducing shock and pain in order to force compliance. That has other names which I won't mention, but it is violent by definition.
Maybe some kids aren't capable of learning through logic, but need corporal punishment to learn important lessons. You may want to repremand children with violence, but don't cover me in lies about it.

[violetyoshi]

Bwahahahahaha.........bahahaha... Oh, wait, you're serious? I have friends who are youth workers, councellors, shrinks, I've looked after kids for years, we're all really good at it to, and know what we all have in common? Yup, we were all spanked as kids *gasp* "No, how is this possible?" you say? Because what I just quoted you on is the most inane load of bull**** I've ever read.

I'm sorry could you try saying that coherently? I couldn't understand your gigglegasm babble of a response.

Any anti-spanking crusader ever come up with a working alternative?

Rapscallion

Time out, positive reinforcement, teach kids why what they did wrong was wrong, pause and take some time to cool off and then regard the child again..

http://parenting.ivillage.com/tp/tpb...njb0-2,00.html

Of course, all those options, require consistency and effort over time. Why bother with that, when you could be lazy and just spank your kid?

[Lace Neil Singer]

Time out would have had zero effect on me, and I already knew that pushing my brother down the stairs was wrong, but I did it anyway. As for waiting and pausing; yeah, that would have been really helpful cuz I probably would have been out the house by that time.

Once again, there is NO SUCH THING as a blanket punishment for all children. If your "theory" is correct, last night when a chav started having a go at me for no reason, I should have started a fight with him and started hitting everyone around him. Nope; I just told him to eff off or I'd tell the landlord and he'd be out on his arse. But, according to you, since my parents smacked me as a child, I should be applying violence to everything? LMAO.

[Rapscallion]

Time out, positive reinforcement, teach kids why what they did wrong was wrong, pause and take some time to cool off and then regard the child again..

http://parenting.ivillage.com/tp/tpb...njb0-2,00.html

Of course, all those options, require consistency and effort over time. Why bother with that, when you could be lazy and just spank your kid?

Chap I know - his ex-girlfriend is a trained nanny. I saw the results of 'the naughty step' she used.

Child in question was on there every so often. He ran over, kicked his sister hard, and then ran and sat on the naughty step before anyone had a chance to react.

Different strokes for different folks. Not every child is going to react well to every method of training.

Rapscallion

[Cat]

My 'rents did that time out crap. I didn't mind it it, I had my books. It did not work on my brother.

Neither of us was spanked, yet he hit me, my friend, and my mother. (This is an OLDER brother.....he was well his teens when he did this)

He required harsher punishment that neither parent had the balls to dish out.

[Nyoibo]

I'm sorry could you try saying that coherently? I couldn't understand your gigglegasm babble of a response.

Your statement was inane and ignorant, coherent enough?

1. Be firm and be kind.
A child is more likely to hear what you're saying if you use a neutral tone.

The hell they are, using a neutral tone just demonstrates to the child that the situation is not important.

5. Give explanations, not threats.
By giving your child a brief explanation of why she needs to do as she's told, you give her a reason to behave.

A two year old will barely understand "Fire bad, tree pretty" when playing with matches.

7. Give incentives.
Inspire your child to cooperate with phrases like, "It's time to go. Why don't you go down the slide one more time and then let's hustle. I want to get home in time to make cookies."

Excellent, teach the child to expect rewards for doing anything and only a "neutral" talk some time in the future. I bet children are quaking in their boots.

8. Be flexible.
If your little one asks, "Can I just finish watching this show before we go?" be reasonable. If you have the time to spare, make room for your child's requests. This is a great way for kids to learn about the art of negotiation

Ah yes, negotiate the rules, "please officer..."

9. Drop out of power struggles.
Nothing is as frustrating or less productive as having a showdown with your little one. Invite your child to cooperate by saying something like, "I've got a problem. I want you to wear a clean shirt and you insist on wearing the same old one every day. How can we solve this problem?" Your child is more likely to cooperate if he comes up with the solution

Ah yes, the "Mummy will cave if I argue long enough" reinforcement.

[AdminAssistant]

Time out would have had zero effect on me

Me either. I liked going to my room, it was quiet and that's where my books were. And, for the record, the only time I was well and truly spanked, as in, with a belt, was when I'd done something seriously wrong, like lying. Those are the only ones I remember, and they weren't done in anger, either. They were the, "Wait until your father gets home" type deals. I know I was popped on the behind some as a toddler, but I don't remember those. But I was a brat out in public. I hated going shopping, so I'd either tug at Mom (hoping to physically pull her towards the door) or go hide in racks of clothing.

Big Sis got into a lot more trouble than I did, but I was also witness to all her punishments. I didn't want to screw up in some of the ways she did, since I knew what the consequences would be.

Things like positive reinforcement, time out, all that's great. But when you are stuck with a situation like a toddler throwing a spectacular, screaming, tantrum...There just ain't a whole lot you can do. A child that is throwing themselves on the ground because you won't buy them Froot Loops is not a being you can reason with.

[kibbles]

What I don't think is fair is that as soon as someone says that are against spanking, they are automatically thought of as people who coddle children and will let theirs run wild. While there are people who don't discipline their children at all, it is fair to remember that not every person against spanking will let their children run rampant. JMO.

[BroomJockey]

No I am not. It is violence if you did it to an adult. It doesn't magically become non-violent when done to your child.

For the record, I was never spanked, or physically disciplined. Hell, I was barely ever disciplined at all. I was damned near a model child growing up. I was sent to my room maybe twice. And I don't have kids, so I've no opportunity to express my own experiences on discipline, but from everything I've heard, a proper spank wouldn't even qualify as violence on an adult. It doesn't magically become violent when done to a child. A proper spank is done with an open hand, and no follow-through so that it's simply quick, abrupt contact that barely even stings, let alone causes pain.

And you magically ignored the rest of my post, where I said that if a child is in a tantrum where you can't reason with them, and their in a situation where they can't leave, you've now neatly removed any possibility of actually punishing a misbehaving child. And a sporadic reinforcement schedule creates absolutely the worst and most difficult to correct behaviour patterns. So you ARE advocating lack of punishment for children in certain situations. Deny it if you want, but try and actually explain why, or what a parent could do, rather than just saying "don't tell me what I'm saying." Because if you can't come up with another option, that IS what you're saying.

[Wingates_Hellsing]

I can't see the abuse, It's just not there.

It's as if everything as much as mildly unpleasant has become 'violence'. Negative reinforcement works sometimes, positive reinforcement works sometimes. Neither works all the time, so sooner or later you're going to need do something which is, frankly, unkind.

Mean? Yes. Abuse? no. Parents sometimes do mean things to their children because it's necessary. Not all children can or will respond to reasoning, to say nothing of the fact that not all people are capable of reasoning with children in the first place.

It's not nice, but that doesn't make it abuse. Abuse is something truly over-the-top. Something that does lasting damage, is unprovoked or unnecessarily painful.

Pulling a kid for a few feet by a harness isn't any of those things. So let's please get past that punishments are unpleasant and get to the meat of the matter, was this excessive?

Reason why it probably isn't:
1: child doesn't seem to be in pain
2: harness, not leash/collar
3: child got to their feet shortly thereafter

Now, that isn't enough, I'll be the first to admit it, because we're supposed to be approaching situations from a standpoint of innocent until proven guilty. Seeing as we have no proof, we can't really get past the 'what if' scenario. So if the kid was throwing a tantrum, and this was what this mother resorted to, fine, looks like it worked anyway. If, however, the mother is dragging the kid about because he sneezes, that's excessive, but still not abuse IMO. Bad parenting maybe, but not abuse.

[IDrinkaRum]

Sending Child Rum to her room when she's naughty doesn't help out. When she's naughty and mad that she's being punished, she becomes ... violent ... towards inanimate objects. She has pulled all the sheets off her bed (including the mattress cover) and then grabbed her full-sized mattress and pull it off the boxspring and throw it on the other side of the room, and then tackle her boxspring to the point of flipping it onto her side and using the bottom of it as a ladder. I tell her she's an X-Man and her mutant power is extreme strength. She thinks it's all fun and games.

As for picking her up whilst in the middle of a tantrum? Yeah, did that once. Once. I don't want to experience that again. The elbows. The knees. The hands. The ear-drum piercing screams as I get close to her to pick her up. It's not fun. And I don't bruise easily. And I was bruised after that. If it weren't for my glasses, I might have ended up with a black eye due to a flying elbow.

[Flyndaran]

...
And you magically ignored the rest of my post, where I said that if a child is in a tantrum where you can't reason with them, and their in a situation where they can't leave, you've now neatly removed any possibility of actually punishing a misbehaving child. And a sporadic reinforcement schedule creates absolutely the worst and most difficult to correct behaviour patterns. So you ARE advocating lack of punishment for children in certain situations. Deny it if you want, but try and actually explain why, or what a parent could do, rather than just saying "don't tell me what I'm saying." Because if you can't come up with another option, that IS what you're saying.

I had a temper as a young child. When my parents spanked me, not only did I not stop, but I also enacted revenge on household items later.
Hitting kids is violent abuse, end of discussion. Trying to say that hitting kids is ok if not painful would have no effect on tempermental children anyway.
Either you are forcing compliance through intimidation and pain, or you aren't. Make up your mind please.
Also, defending physical violence perpetrated on preteens by defending it against toddlers is changing the goalposts.

[BroomJockey]

Either you are forcing compliance through intimidation and pain, or you aren't. Make up your mind please.
Also, defending physical violence perpetrated on preteens by defending it against toddlers is changing the goalposts.

No one's defending violence perpetrated on preteens. Are you sure you're in the right thread? This is about punishment on toddlers-youth about 6. Unless I'm really horrible at judging ages, there's no way the kid's even that old. Keep to the actual topic, k?

And as for the first, you're the one continually equating spanking to violence. Just because your limited experience and imagination cannot encompass the idea of spanking which isn't intended to welt doesn't mean it doesn't exist. My position's clear from the start, you're the one unable to grasp it.

[Flyndaran]

No one's defending violence perpetrated on preteens. Are you sure you're in the right thread? This is about punishment on toddlers-youth about 6. Unless I'm really horrible at judging ages, there's no way the kid's even that old. Keep to the actual topic, k?

And as for the first, you're the one continually equating spanking to violence. Just because your limited experience and imagination cannot encompass the idea of spanking which isn't intended to welt doesn't mean it doesn't exist. My position's clear from the start, you're the one unable to grasp it.

At six I could name the solar system's planets in order of largest to smallest and from distance average to the sun. Even at that age, I didn't think Pluto was a real planet. That is not toddler by any means. Again, maybe my family is odd, so what I call logical thinking small child, you call toddler.
What's the point of a non-painful spanking? I can't imagine how it would or could stop an irrational misbehaving child.
Please, on this board I have proven that logic can persuade me to change my opinion.