Abortion, Animal Rights, and Capital Punishment

[guywithashovel]

Often, people who are pro-choice, yet opposed to the death penalty are accused of being hypocrites.

Likewise, people who are pro-choice, yet involved with any form of animal rights issue or endangered species preservation tend to face the same allegations.

To keep this post from getting too long, people are often accused of hypocrisy if they support one of these things yet oppose the other.

Do these accusations have any merit?

[Mr Slugger]

Well see I know someone who is against abortion, but is for the death penalty. But that's because babies haven't had a chance. Whereas a person on death row had theirs and they blew it.

But see I think it depends on the prospective of the person. For instance I guess you could call me pro choice, but my view of pro choice is only because I think that there has to be legal abortion in case of rape, incest, severe defects, or some kind of health problem cause by the pregnancy to the mother. I don't think it should be used as a form of birth control.

And I could guess that you could be against the death penalty because you want to see someone suffer in jail for the rest of their life rather than get the quick way out. Like personally i think we don't fry enough people, and by fry I mean just that no humane way just strap them in a chair and fry em. But if the criminal is looking for the fast track to their god, eh let them rot in jail. But my look on it is what will cause them the most agony.

[Slytovhand]

I think a lot of the issues can be fairly complex, and it's easy to look at things black and white and thus label someone a hypocrit.

As mentioned, you can be for against abortion, but for death penalty. There's no real contradiction involved if you actually look in depth at the reasoning behind such a stance.

The two sides are not equal, and I think that's what the problem is... it's easy to say they are the same, but in reality they're not.

[Greenday]

Now, I'm for abortion, but I'm against the death penalty. As I'm only for abortion in the early stages, as I don't believe it to be truly alive when it cannot function on its own, I don't see it as murder. But the death penalty is no different to me than stone cold killers. How can we advance as a society when our justice system includes murdering people themselves? Plus it costs more to use the death penalty than to give someone life in prison. Whereas abortion is cheaper than raising a kid 18 years.

[IDrinkaRum]

I am for animal rights. I wish all shelters were no-kill shelters. Animals shouldn't have to suffer and die just because humans are stupid, over breed them and don't care enough to get them "fixed".

I am also, personally, against abortion. I do not proclaim it from the mountain tops, I do not protest against it. It's my personal conviction and I don't think anyone else really needs to know my stance on it.

I am also against the death penalty. There have been too many muck ups about getting the wrong person convicted and the chance of an innocent person being put to death is too high.

Killing is killing no matter if it's a human who "made his choice", or a child who hasn't yet lived to make their choice, or an animal who is "too dumb" (by some people's standards) to even make a choice.

[Nyoibo]

Plus it costs more to use the death penalty than to give someone life in prison.

Do you have a source for that? I've never heard that before.

[Greenday]

Do you have a source for that? I've never heard that before.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/costs-death-penalty

That's the best website that breaks it down state by state. The .gov sites don't seem to have any numbers on costs of either.

But the reason why the death penalty costs more than life without parole is because the prisons with death row inmates require a lot more guards and the guards require higher pay. The trials where capital punishment is an option take much longer because of the crapload of appeals they are given. You get the idea. Everything requires more time and money because of how much more serious the penalty is.

[BroomJockey]

I think the reason it's looked at as hypocrisy is that it's people looking at the position, rather than the reasoning. It's easy to say that being pro-choice and anti-death penalty means that you're condoning one murder, and condemning another, and that you're only justifying to yourself, but that's because it's using the judger's values, and discounting the other's beliefs. They say you can justify anything, if you try, but if you really believe it, is it really justification?

[Cat]

I'm for animal rights

I'm pro-choice

I'm for the death penalty (one of my few stances keeping me from getting my hippie membership)

[RecoveringKinkoid]

I'm pro choice because I don't believe the government has any business making life-affecting medical decisions for anyone. Would I have one? Well, I'd like to think not, but then I certainly would not want that decision made for me by someone who has nothing to do with me or my family.

I'm pro death penalty not because I like the idea of criminals "getting what they deserve", but because I believe that society has to protect itself against those that would rape and murder it's members. It's not revenge. It's self preservation (and yes, I understand prison would supposedly do that, but people in prison for lesser crimes do not deserve to be exposed to rapists and murderers, either. Plus, I'm not convinced that anyone's getting "rehabilitated", so I see no reason to waste resources and put others at risk.) If we had a place to dump such people forever, with 0% chance of escape, where they'd never be able to endanger anyone again, that would be fine with me, too. I just don't believe prison is that place. )

Not sure what we mean exactly by "animal rights" but I do believe that we have a responsibility and obligation to protect animals from cruelty and suffering. Actually, I can see where the first two things (abortion vs death penalty) might be debated as one subject, but not sure why add the animal thing. Seems a separate topic to me. )

[crashhelmet]

I am anti-abortion but like Mr. Slugger, I am willing to compromise when certain situations are involved. Things like rape, health risks, etc. Not someone who's doing it in lieu of birth control or because they're afraid it will mean having to move back home with the in-laws, or some other petty bullshit.

I am pro death penalty. In fact, I think it needs to be broadened. There are far to many people that have proven time and time again that they are a burden to society and will never be reformed. Anyone that is found without a shadow of a doubt to be guilty of an offense meriting Capital Punishment should be executed shortly afterwards. Don't waste the time, gas, or other expenses to transfer them to a prison and keep them until their final day.

For animal cruelty, I think we need to take the time to determine what is considered cruelty and what isn't. If an animal is born and bred for the distinct purpose of being eaten and/or worn, I'm not going to be quick to call their treatment cruel. Yes, what they do to some animals, like calves, is cruel, but it's no where near the same as someone that gets off on sticking firecrackers up the butt of some stray animal or puts them into a trashbag and throws them out of their moving vehicle. In my opinion, people like this are some of the ones we need to broaden the death penalty for.

Getting back to the OP though, I think Broom hit it on the head. It all comes down to personal perception and semantics. To restate my viewpoint, I think life is a gift. Like all gifts, there are some people that are not worthy of receiving them.

CH

[Flyndaran]

I'm massively for animal rights. I only wish humans could all be herbivores. Note I said that rather than vegetarians, because many of us simply cannot survive healthily on a vegetation only diet. I still refuse to eat mammals, though, and think boiling anything alive is fucked up.

I am massively against the death penalty for a few reasons. First is the oops we screwed up reason. It's so much easier to tell someone after 30 years in prison that he's free to go because of corruption, incompetence or simple he looked guilty at the time, than to say to that to his next of kin. That's even if anyone takes the time to look. After someone's executed the case is closed no matter what the trught is. Second is the racist sexist manner in which the death penalty is chosen. Until a young white woman would be just as likely to get that sentence as a young black man, I don't think we should kill them.
Third is my atheist poking through. I don't want the truly evil people to get freedom through non-existance that death offers. I want them to wake up every day knowing that what they did and the punishment that resulted.

I am pro choice, because of my belief that making our own medical decisions is one of our most fundamental rights as people. Until about the late second/ third trimester, when a fetus develops the ability to feel pain as we know it, it simply isn't something that should trump a woman's right to her own medical decisions.

Like everyone, I like to think my views are a rational unit, but what if they aren't? Should every combination of beliefs be sacrosanct and above criticism?

No care for animal rights, plus against abortion seems an untenable position in my opinion. Either something with the complexity of a chicken egg has rights or it doesn't. Creatures have rights for what they are, not what they might become.

[BroomJockey]

I'm massively for animal rights. I only wish humans could all be herbivores. Note I said that rather than vegetarians, because many of us simply cannot survive healthily on a vegetation only diet.

Herbivore MEANS vegetarian. http://www.google.com/search?client=...utf-8&oe=utf-8

Not sure what definition you're using, but google doesn't seem to know it.

[DesignFox]

Broom, I think he means he'd rather we all be vegetarians by design rather than choice.

Humans as they were created were meant to be omnivores. You've got to be creative in your diet to get the same nutrients from plants that you get from animals.

I sometimes think I'd rather be pure carnivore. Alas, gotta get the other vitamins from those pesky awful tasting green things. (kidding, I do like grains and pastas, a variety of fruits and even a salad now and then- a pure veggie diet would be hell for me, though.)

[BroomJockey]

Broom, I think he means he'd rather we all be vegetarians by design rather than choice.

If that's true, it's a horrible idea. And I mean truly terrible. To get the amount of energy and nutrients required would require nearly constant eating. In fact, we'd probably never have formed civilizations just because there wouldn't have been sufficient numbers of people to start specializing, everyone would have been too busy getting their own food in the amounts required. So that idea would basically be the destruction of human civilization.