Abortion, Animal Rights, and Capital Punishment

[Boozy]

It's an artificial wealth. It's allowed us to populate the planet far past the point where nature intended. Our dependence on it may be our downfall.

We depend on all sorts of things that, if they disappeared suddenly, would be our downfall. But the fact remains is that the population boom after the agricultural revolution has hugely benefitted humanity. It allows us to live in societies, create art and music, learn science and math, and generally lead longer and healthier lives.

Today, grains like rice and wheat are the staple diet of the majority of the world's poor. We westerners are rich, so we have the luxury of eating fruit and nuts all day if we wish. You should feel free to do so. But advocating a non-grain diet for everyone is not feasible and wouldn't be beneficial for the human race at large.

That's not necesarily a bad thing.

Famine leading to mass starvation is a bad thing. I'd have thought that would be something everyone could agree on.

[Nyoibo]

Famine leading to mass starvation is a bad thing. I'd have thought that would be something everyone could agree on.

Yeah... I ain't normal.

[Flyndaran]

Flyn, you're deluded. If you're talking "in the future" being herbivores, fine. But if humans started out as herbivores, we wouldn't have civilization. This is 100% fact. Why? Because humans wouldn't have been able to find the required food during times of hardship. The whole reason we did well was because we could eat damn near anything we came across. If you removed meat from the equation, we'd never have gotten to the point where we'd be able to farm, which was the catalyst for civilization. Humans probably would have just died out.

Absolutely wrong again.
You seem to be continuing to confuse low nutrient plant foods like grass with high nutrient plant foods like tubers and fruit.
One of the smartest animals on earth is the elephant, a completely herbivorous non-ruminating creature.
Meat was important for human evolution but not necessary for advanced life, and certainly not necessary for intelligence.

This is all mostly moot, as we both agree that modern humans almost always need animal and plant foods in our diet.

[Mr Slugger]

I think the thing that one thing that has been forgotten is that if humans did in fact survive totally on green stuff (shudders at the thought) then we'd have alot of competition. I mean cows eat greens, deer, rabbit, all the tasty animals eat green stuff. So if the world was covered with farms of vegetables, fruits, grain then we'd probably still have to kill those animals because they'd be eating our food supply, especially seeing we do it already. I mean isn't that what pesticides do when they spray it on the veggies, except of course we only kill bugs currently.

My opinion on animal rights is somewhat like someone else said. Putting a firecracker up a frog's butt is cruelty, but as far as food. They're food.

[RecoveringKinkoid]

Absolutely wrong again.

One of the smartest animals on earth is the elephant, a completely herbivorous non-ruminating creature.
Meat was important for human evolution but not necessary for advanced life, and certainly not necessary for intelligence.
.

Actually, Broomjocky is not wrong at all, absolutely or otherwise. That post was dead on right.

Elephants are smart. They have a large brain to body size ratio. Believe me I know they smart. I worked in a zoo. And about that....they aren't smarter than we are, as evidenced by what side of the fence they were on as opposed to the one we were on.

I'm pretty sure meat was what allowed us to develop our great big brains. I'll see if I can find something to back that up, but I'm pretty sure I'm right about that. Meat allowed us to get smart, grain allowed us to survive lean times and also allowed us to settle in one place. But without the smarts, we would have never survived long enoujgh to figure out how to farm and store food.

And as for grass, I would think it was only a foodsource because it produced an edible grain. I mean, corn is a grass. Wheat is a grass. However, you eat grass, and it goes undigested through your system. You aren't equipt to digest it.

EDIT: Okay, here you go. I googled "meat eating +evolution of brain in humans" and this is the first thing that came up. It's a very interesting arficle, and you might like it too, Flyndarin, because it touches on a few things you mentioned as well.

http://trc.ucdavis.edu/catoft/eve11/..._Milton_99.pdf

[guywithashovel]

I can't believe this thread went from alleged hypocrisy in stances on issues to a dietary debate in just a few pages.

[Flyndaran]

...

EDIT: Okay, here you go. I googled "meat eating +evolution of brain in humans" and this is the first thing that came up. It's a very interesting arficle, and you might like it too, Flyndarin, because it touches on a few things you mentioned as well.

http://trc.ucdavis.edu/catoft/eve11/..._Milton_99.pdf

For crying out loud. You even quoted why I disagree. Meat, especially organs and marrow was important for HUMAN evolution but not required for all imaginable intelligence/sapience.
That file is one person's view, and not even a biologist's at that. I won't take his word for anything outside his specialty.
It's a bad habit of scientists to assume what is is the only way possible, that what was was the only way possible.
No, evolution of true sapience is such a biological stupidity that any wild guesses abour why or how our species did it will never be proven until the far future if even then.

[Boozy]

I can't believe this thread went from alleged hypocrisy in stances on issues to a dietary debate in just a few pages.

You're right. I even replied earlier having no idea what the original topic was. That's how far off track this one has become.

In fairness to those more interested in the original subject, let's take our tangential conversation about the human diet and evolution to another thread. Thanks.

[RecoveringKinkoid]

For crying out loud. You even quoted why I disagree. .

Yes, I know. Hence the comment that you might find it interesting. I was trying to be fair and open minded.

[Flyndaran]

Yes, I know. Hence the comment that you might find it interesting. I was trying to be fair and open minded.

Okay, I misinterpreted your gist.

[RecoveringKinkoid]

S'alright. That's the problem with conversations over the internet. No telling what kind of tone something is meant to be.

[Flyndaran]

S'alright. That's the problem with conversations over the internet. No telling what kind of tone something is meant to be.

Yeah, but I misinterpret more often than the average internet reader. My mind thinks a little off kilter from normal.

[Slytovhand]

I'm gonna try and do both debates

Firstly, I totally agree with Flyn... (hang on, did I really say that?? ) Yes, meat doesn't mean smarts, as we'll probably find out in the not too distant future.. when humans meet other space faring races that are complete herbivores... that'll be prove absolute!

And, I'll also agree with Nyoibo (which isn't surprising, cos he keeps nicking all the thoughts in my head ). Lack of food will mean humans just may stop trying to destroy the planet in their greed...

Which leads back to the OP... what about people who are for animal rights, but don't have a problem with the world slowly (and rapidly) getting ruined for the rest of the planet due to humanity's actions?? Humans, for some rather illogical (although, understandable - psychologically speaking) reason seem to think that all other human life is important - more important than any other creatures (except in cases where a human has formed a bond with some animal). You don't actually see something like that anywhere else on the planet... unless an animal is related directly to another one, it really doesn't give a stuff what happens to it's neighbour... sure, this has had some good effects for humans (society), but I'd say it has it's down side as well....

[Nyoibo]

Firstly, I totally agree with Flyn... (hang on, did I really say that?? ) Yes, meat doesn't mean smarts, as we'll probably find out in the not too distant future.. when humans meet other space faring races that are complete herbivores... that'll be prove absolute!

Either that, or they'll be carnivores and eat us all.

[RecoveringKinkoid]

Either that, or they'll be carnivores and eat us all.

Yeah. They'll be here to serve man.