Compassionate Release

[Gravekeeper]

You're taking it completely to the other extreme, blas.

No one is saying we care more about the offender than the victim nor is anyone saying the victim deserved it. Nor is anyone saying to pretend nothing happened. No one is "standing up" against the victims for the murders. Stop putting words in people's mouths.

Forgiveness doesn't mean saying it was okay. Its merely moving on and not continuing the cycle. Resentment, vengeance, etc are why the world is so utterly fucked up to begin with.

It does take a fuckload of strength to forgive someone that has done something horrible to you or someone you love and let go of the resentment and anger. Those things eat away at people, as they are, frankly, eating away at you if the amount of misguided wrath here is any indication.

Forgiveness is a hard thing to do, I know, I've done it before under less than pleasant circumstances. Now a days I'm Buddhist, and as hard as it can be at times, I try to find compassion for all living things. Regardless of what they've done or who they've done it too. The universe works in ways far more complex than I will ever understand in this lifetime and I know I'm only watching brief flickers of other people's reincarnations. There are reasons behind everything that happens that I know I won't understand but I have to accept that there was a purpose and consequences to them.

So I'm not going to sit around and rage over it when something happens I don't want to come to terms with. That will only haunt me and drag my own life down. Why give someone that sort of power over you to let them poison your happiness for the rest of your life? Fuck that.

But yes, if you're flying that far off the handle because someone quoted Gandhi than yeah, perhaps you should stop reading this forum, frankly.

[Slytovhand]

WTF is Blas not posting any more??? Granted, I didn't always agree with her, but certainly on a lot of things we see eye to eye... including on this (to an extent..). I can also see GK's side of things.

But.. karma! Which mere mortal here is the one to say it's been repaid?? Is it really cold and callous to want someone to actually serve the sentence they were given.

(since I like to bring in seemingly irrelevant ideas, and tangent the threads ), let's look at marriage - what could be considered the opposite to murder (ok - good marriage). Would it be ok if one of the pair just upped and walked when it got tough? If the hubby or wife copped a terminal illness, is it ok then to end the marriage? If not, then why is a convicted criminal allowed to just up and walk (ok, maybe she can't walk anymore, but you get the point).

Am I making any sense here at all????

Compassion. Is it really a human trait? Or is unrelenting revenge more human? Or vindictiveness? Or even just mere justice??

After all - take almost any animal (other than human). How long do they hold a grudge for? Will they 'forgive' you if you harm them? Or will they come back to you later?? (and I'm not referring to a Pavlovian stimulus/response mechanism, where you've taught the animal to fear you - or other humans).

In the end - they should both have stayed where they were.. unless proven innocent!

[Gravekeeper]

Compassion. Is it really a human trait? Or is unrelenting revenge more human? Or vindictiveness? Or even just mere justice??

After all - take almost any animal (other than human). How long do they hold a grudge for?

The entire point of Buddhism, and arguably most religions, is to rise above our primitive instincts.

But.. karma! Which mere mortal here is the one to say it's been repaid?? Is it really cold and callous to want someone to actually serve the sentence they were given.

...doesn't that paragraph sort of undermine itself? -.- You could argue its been repaid by 40 years in jail giving her inoperable brain cancer and nothing to look forward too but a few paralyzed months of horrible pain and impending death.

Stacking bars on top of that just seems kind of karmically redundant. ;p


Edit:

Oh, and I should point out that legally speaking in Canada and the US "Life in prison" doesn't mean in prison till you die. It means "Get the fuck in there and in 10-25 years we'll think about letting you out."

[Slytovhand]

The entire point of Buddhism, and arguably most religions, is to rise above our primitive instincts.

True, no argument there. But I was more pointing out what actually are our primitive instincts.. Jail certainly doesn't seem to be one of them, and is in fact more of a social compromise... one between our base instincts ('kill the bastard and make them pay') and a 'higher' way to do things ('let them live and be a better part of society').

...doesn't that paragraph sort of undermine itself? -.- You could argue its been repaid by 40 years in jail giving her inoperable brain cancer and nothing to look forward too but a few paralyzed months of horrible pain and impending death.

Stacking bars on top of that just seems kind of karmically redundant. ;p

No, it doesn't undermine it... I'm just saying that as a human who hasn't actually achieved Nirvana or enlightenment, I'm not someone who can really make a judgement on whether Karma has been achieved or not... and I'd be inclined to say that no-one walking this planet actually is...

Isn't it highly unlikely that she's not going to work that one off for a while? Even with the terminal cancer and life imprisonment?

(and yeah, same here - life is usually only about 25 years)

[AdminAssistant]

I believe they can also designate "Life with no parole" which means you are in prison until the day you die. Or they can do what they did with Bernie Madoff and sentence you to a gajillion bajillion years in prison.

Since I'm not Scottish, can't say much about the Pan Am bomber. As far as Ms. Atkins goes, let her die in prison. I'm not saying let her die in agony with no treatment. But she shouldn't be released. Chuckie sure as HELL doesn't need to be released. Even if he wasn't an active participant in crimes committed by his "family", he was the instigator. Keep him in his padded room with his special jacket - it's exactly where he belongs.

[BlaqueKatt]

You could argue its been repaid by 40 years in jail giving her inoperable brain cancer and nothing to look forward too but a few paralyzed months of horrible pain and impending death.

yeah she's had her leg amputated and can't even get out of bed.

Oh, and I should point out that legally speaking in Canada and the US "Life in prison" doesn't mean in prison till you die. It means "Get the fuck in there and in 10-25 years we'll think about letting you out."

usually when they're considered no longer a threat to society-what upsets me is that Sharon Tate's sister is so consumed by hatred and vengeance that she doesn't believe Atikins has terminal cancer, and also believes her sister's murder is still the "most brutal the world has ever seen". Sadly I think there have been worse. She's spent her entire life being angry at people that didn't even know who her sister was, that she's missed out on so much happiness in life, and all she can be is a bitter, resentful old woman.


forgiveness-from the mayo clinic-yes it is a health issue-studies are showing that people who hold grudges, resentment, or a need for vengeance have more depression, high blood pressure, heart disease, substance abuse, mental illness, anger management issues, chronic pain with no definite source, and more.

Anger is not by any means healthy.

[telecom_goddess]

I don't think Blas is weak for what she believes in. I agree with her actually. If this woman had been forced to kill against her will I would have some compassion. But she wasn't forced, she CHOSE to follow that insane man's orders instead of breaking away...and had no regard for human life. As a result I really think she should just rot away in jail with no treatment, or they should just kill her outright and get it over with.

The fact that they skated away from the death penalty is bullshit....when it got reinstated their sentences should have been reinstated right along with it.

[Gravekeeper]

The fact that they skated away from the death penalty is bullshit....when it got reinstated their sentences should have been reinstated right along with it.

Gah, not the death penalty again. That's a shit storm landmine topic at the best of times.

[Boozy]

We'd like to keep this as much on topic as possible, please. Although there will be some inevitable drift into a discussion about the justice system in general, the last thing we need is yet another death penalty thread. We have more than several already. Here are a few, for those interested:

http://www.fratching.com/showthread.php?t=611

http://www.fratching.com/showthread.php?t=374

http://www.fratching.com/showthread.php?t=81

[BlaqueKatt]

Have I moved on with life? Well obviously I can live day to day and work and eat and sleep, it's been several years, but not a day goes by where I don't want him to experience pain and suffering like he inflicted upon her and her unborn baby.

and that hatred is slowly poisoning you and your outlook on life-if it's a part of your daily life-you have not "gotten past it" or "moved on"-rather than letting the wound heal you choose to rip it open repeatedly. Nothing will bring your cousin back-but dwelling on it and letting it consume your life-your cousin becomes the first victim, you are well on your way to becoming the second. You may not be dead-but you may as well be as you're still focused on the past and not living your life-you are letting him take your life away as well.

Do you think he ever thinks about who he hurt-I doubt it, so why do you waste your time thinking about him at all? It doesn't hurt him at all-you are only hurting yourself.


in a previous thread you stated

he comes up for parole when I'm 35, and I will do everything I can to make sure he stays in there or so help me God I will kill him with my bare hands<snip>I would love to choke him with my bare hands and shove his corpse under a bed and see how he likes it.

And followed it up with he didn't deserve to breathe the same air as you, yet you want to take his life-how does that make you the "stronger person"-you are becoming more like him the longer you hang on to the hate, bitterness and resentment.

Forgiving isn't the same as forgetting what happened to you. The act that hurt or offended you may always remain a part of your life. But forgiveness can lessen its grip on you and help you focus on other, positive parts of your life. Forgiveness also doesn't mean that you deny the other person's responsibility for hurting you, and it doesn't minimize or justify the wrong. You can forgive the person without excusing the act.

I never got to say goodbye to her. She was only 20 years old, with a bright future. She was attending college, getting good marks, and had a great job. She was going to have a baby and marry this guy, then he kills her, for NO reason!

remember my step-brother was murdered-shotgun blast point blank to the chest, he bled out while crawling for the door-his aunt found him. He was engaged and had a 3 year old son. So yes I do know the pain, and I know the relief you get from forgiving the killer.

Holding on to bitterness and anger can cause problems of their own, so if you have ever been victimized, being able to forgive your victimizer is a crucial part of your healing.

"I’ve seen individuals, for example, who have lost a family member because of a crime. The survivors’ anger and desire for revenge poison their entire beings. They so focus on what they’ve lost, and what they wanted the dead person to be, and do, for them, that they completely miss the opportunity they’ve been given to learn about real love.

Instead, they seem to believe that hatred, even to the point of capital punishment, will satisfy their thirst for vengeance and will somehow bring them healing.

So, with hardened hearts and stiff lips, they say, “I’ll never forgive.”

And the sad thing is that in wishing to send someone to hell they end up sending themselves there as well."*

That’s because forgiveness by itself is still psychologically preferable to holding a grudge. Why? Because the bitterness of a grudge works like a mental poison that doesn’t hurt anyone but yourself. Seeking revenge or wishing harm to another will, at the minimum, deplete your strength and prevent your wounds from healing. In the worst case, the cold hunger for revenge will make you into a victimizer yourself.


* Hamama-Raz, Y., Solomon, Z., Cohen, A., & Laufer, A. (2008). PTSD symptoms, forgiveness, and revenge among Israeli Palestinian and Jewish Adolescents.

[Peppergirl]

I guess I'd be considered 'weak' also, because if Sharon Tate had been a relative of mine, I'd be completely unforgiving as well.

I just can't imagine finding forgiveness for such an act, I really can't.

[DesignFox]

I think that there is also a distinct difference between forgiving someone and just letting them get away with it.

I see nothing wrong or vengeful about making a criminal serve their sentence.

I don't give a damn if this woman has cancer and can't crawl out of bed. She is a criminal serving a sentence. She serves that sentence. Period.

While I may not take quite as angry a stance as some others here, I have to agree that criminals should do their time. If you don't want to spend your life behind bars, if you don't want to die in jail, don't kill people! Period!

Ask any person who knows me. I am a very sympathetic, compassionate person. I will go far out of my way to help most people. I've done favors for people who clearly don't deserve it, and I've been walked all over for doing so. Yet, I continue to be the good person I am because I truly believe that most people are good or can and do learn from their mistakes.

But goddammit! Cry me a river that horrendous murderer X has cancer and oooh boo hoo they've got what they deserved let them out! No. No No No.

Do the crime. Do the fucking time. I'm so sick of the idiocy that is standing up for criminals rights. Fuck criminals. Just fuck 'em. I'm tired of it.

I am not saying that people deserve to be tortured (I don't condone torture to anyone). I do think it's great that there are standards in prisons for I do not feel that prisoners deserve to be abused. I only believe the death penalty should be used in *extreme* cases, not for just anything. I do believe that certain criminals deserve second chances or at least should be given a way to rehabilitate and become contributing members of society.

But I'm not letting people off the hook. Cancer is not a get out of jail free card.

I can understand where people like blas are coming from. I like to think I'd forgive the person, but I certainly wouldn't forget. I would absolutely want that person to serve their full sentence. Wanting a murderer to stay behind bars is not being unsympathetic or mean.

[Fashion Lad!]

I say let her go into a nursing home. Have you ever been in a nursing home? Those are nothing short of prison, but with nicer rooms and possibly better food. At this point, she's probably in pain and locked inside her own head unable to do anything. At this point, no matter where she is, she's in prison.

Who knows, maybe her brain cancer is the act of Karma?

If someone asks for my forgiveness, I'll always forgive them. If someone is too stuck in their own mind, they need forgiveness. They don't necessarily deserve it, but they need it.

[BlaqueKatt]

I see nothing wrong or vengeful about making a criminal serve their sentence.

You do realize Compassionate release IS part of the penal code right

The director may recommend at any time to the sentencing court the recall of an inmate’s commitment pursuant to Penal Code section 1170(d) for one or more of the following reasons:

(a) The inmate is terminally ill and is not condemned or sentenced to life without possibility of parole.

and you are aware that most murderers are granted parole within 10 years-she's served 40 years which is 4 times what any other murderer serves.

I notice that no one cares about this low profile* compassionate release- or this one-actually people are supporting both of them-both are murderers. The second one the inmate in question is perfectly healthy and was the youngest person ever on death row(age 16 at time of conviction). I guess it's only people who murder celebrities that are worth being upset over.


*woman lured her ex-boyfriend, who was dating someone else to a park and had two men beat him to death for the insurance money-then claimed he was abusive-which doesn't matter as they were not together anymore and she was in no danger-she was also apparently jealous of his new girlfriend. She's only served 25 years.

[BroomJockey]

Those are nothing short of prison, but with nicer rooms and possibly better food.

Nicer rooms maybe, but I've yet to visit one with better food.



Now, I'm all for a person serving their sentence, but in advanced cases of illness like this, where someone's life is likely measured in months, and someone's not even able to care for themselves, I don't really see the point of keeping them in prison, wasting limited penal resources, when a hospital would provide better care, more efficiently.

To put that in to the proper frame of reference, remember I'm Canadian, all health care's already paid for by the state, and I prefer jail be rehabilitative, rather than punitive.