Speed cameras=revenue raisers?

[Fashion Lad!]

That's called "following too close," and blaming one traffic violation on another one is a poor argument.

Guess what? The insurance will. Because I got into an accident on Sunday, a red was run and I was hit. And now I'm being blamed for 20% of that accident because I didn't avoid it. In an ideal world, what you said would be true. But it's all about money. So, I'm going to do my best to avoid an accident as much as possible. And if that means that instead of slamming on my brakes to avoid running a red, well, I'm going to run the red.

A few years ago, I was given 15% blame on a accident when I was t-boned when I had the right away and someone else had a stop sign. It took my insurance company 4 months to get me my deductible back. You know what the best fucking part of it all was, the person that hit me said, "It was my fault, I didn't see him. I didn't look". It was in the police report. Her insurance agent told me that's what she said. She told me that to ,my face. STILL! 15% of the fucking blame was on me.

It's all about money!!! It's always going to be about money! It's never safety. It's one bull-shit program for the government to squeeze as much money out of us as possible. It what it is. The links I posted showed that it is not safer to have those cameras. Fucking bull-shit, ticky-tacky government.

[DesignFox]

Hey, this may be seem like a first, but I agree with FashionLad! 100%.

There was a discussion about this on the radio station I listen to. Studies they referenced showed that speeding cameras increased the frequency of accidents (people being paranoid and not wanting tickets doing stupid shit to stop in time). What actually lowered the accident rates? Extending the amber lights.

Anyway, I think it is total BS that a camera determines a traffic violation. The machine cannot determine whether someone was breaking the law because they are an impatient asshole or if it just happened because the person could not stop in time (i.e. Driving a large truck or dragging a large trailer which cannot stop instantly, or if the roads are wet and slippery) or if the person did not stop because the person behind them would have crashed into them.

Red light running is not always a black and white issue. Just because someone missed the light, doesn't even necessrily mean they were speeding.

[Flyndaran]

The problem with driving to the hospital is that no matter how magically faster you drive than professionals, your injured get put in the back of the line and require much longer to triage. Paramedics get their patients to the proper place in line faster.

This is quite some thread drift.

As to red light cameras, I want them. I don't want police officers being wasted with menial speed catching.

[crazylegs]

I'm supposed to call 911 and wait for an ambulance to take me? Or have a friend take me and drive with haste because I'm in pain. <snip>

Besides, over here in many communities ambulances are simply not that accessible. Some people live over an hour away from a decent hospital.

You certainly don't want your friend driving you. Say you have fractured your arm, how do you immobilise it to prevent further damage (and therefore pain) during transportation? Do you have vacuum splints lying around, and a trained person to use them?

Further to that your friend is going to be more concerned that you're ok than whats going on around them in the road. This is bad at the best of times, let alone while you're advocating speeding.

In addition if you take OTC pain relief this may prolong your wait for surgery (and increase your pain duration), so you may as well wait for the ambulance and their stock of Entonox, vacuum splints and trained paramedics.

Red light running is not always a black and white issue. Just because someone missed the light, doesn't even necessrily mean they were speeding.

Absolutely, because it doesn't measure speed, but it does measure the fact that the person isn't driving correctly for the road conditions and anticpating that the lights will change soon. Driving is not about speed and reaction times, it is about planning and anticipation, observation is a much greater skill than a quick reaction speed; if you see a car in a junction waiting to merge into your road do you slow in anticipation that he may pull out or do you blithely carry on at your speed because you have right of way?

Traffic signals are exactly the same. If you approach one that has been green for a long time (i.e. since you've been looking at it along the road) then it would be foolish to anticipate that it would stay green until you get there, by slowing your approach you have a much more reasonable chance of stopping when it does inevitebly turn red, in addition the prat who is riding your bumper will also be travelling at a slower speed and will have less chance of rear ending you.

[AdminAssistant]

so you may as well wait for the ambulance and their stock of Entonox, vacuum splints and trained paramedics.

Again - lack of availability, extended time, a lot of money. Hell, I'd barely be able to afford the $100 emergency room fee, much less an extremely expensive trip in an ambulance.

[protege]

Red light running is not always a black and white issue. Just because someone missed the light, doesn't even necessrily mean they were speeding.

Exactly--there could be other factors. For example, my father slid through a red light while on the way back from my great-grandmother's funeral. That entire day, it was snowing...and got progressively worse on the return trip from Cleveland. As such, the roads were pretty bad. Nothing seriously, but because he took his time, nothing happened.

That is, until we got closer to home. As we're coming down the hill (Route 88 by South Park) at about 30mph or so, the light went red. Dad tried to stop...but because the road was slick, the van went right into the intersection There was no way he could have stopped for the light. Well, without putting the van sideways and possibly causing a *bigger* accident. Good thing nobody was either in the intersection or coming the other way.

Also, there are some traffic lights, at least locally, that have been reset with a time that's too short. As such, you'll sit there literally forever waiting for it to change. No wonder that some people occasionally run them.

[DesignFox]

<snip>
Absolutely, because it doesn't measure speed, but it does measure the fact that the person isn't driving correctly for the road conditions and anticpating that the lights will change soon. Driving is not about speed and reaction times, it is about planning and anticipation, observation is a much greater skill than a quick reaction speed; if you see a car in a junction waiting to merge into your road do you slow in anticipation that he may pull out or do you blithely carry on at your speed because you have right of way?

Traffic signals are exactly the same. If you approach one that has been green for a long time (i.e. since you've been looking at it along the road) then it would be foolish to anticipate that it would stay green until you get there, by slowing your approach you have a much more reasonable chance of stopping when it does inevitebly turn red, in addition the prat who is riding your bumper will also be travelling at a slower speed and will have less chance of rear ending you.

Even the best laid plans can and do go awry. I don't often end up pushing ambers or running reds, but even driving cautiously I can't always anticipate the length of the light.

In my state it is not wise to slow down for no apparent reason. You will get run off the road.

And frankly, when I'm trying to merge onto the highway, it pisses me off when people slow down because they "don't know what I'm going to do." Keep going and get the hell outta the way so I can merge! When people start changing speeds it makes it harder for me to anticipate and react. Just stay steady so I can do the same.

To me, the red light cameras encourage more unpredictability. Which in turn, will lead to more accidents. People in my state who drive like assholes annoy me, but if they drive like a predictable asshole, I can drive alongside them safely.

It's the idiots who randomly slow down, don't use turn signals, blithely jump into traffic, speed and weave to get around people going too slow, stop short, and then the guy that blows past the guy stopping before the light changes that cause problems.

And I've been with my riding instructor who obeys all speed laws and does approach lights with caution every weekend for the past two summers. Occasionally, the lights change fairly rapidly (very short amber) and she simply CANNOT stop the horse trailer in time. Not without causing the horses injury or causing an accident. She beeps her horn when this happens to warn people in the intersection that she CANNOT stop. Trucks and trailers don't stop on a dime. All the best planning in the world can't change physics.

And sorrrrry. But if its snowing or raining and the roads are slick, I'll be damned if I'm slamming on my brakes and skidding into the middle of the intersection. I don't drive like an asshole in wet conditions, and occasionally I still can't help the fact that the road is just too slippery for me to be able to make that stop without causing bigger problems for myself or the person who might be behind me.

Now, let's put up these cameras and watch all the accidents we have because people will stop using their brains, and start stopping like loony birds just to avoid fines. Cause that's preferable to just dealing with the occasional asshole.

[DrFaroohk]

I was always taught that it's your own responsibility to stop in time without rear-ending someone or sliding through a light. Even when extenuating circumstances came into play, such as a heavy load, or slippery roads, it's still your own responsibility to stop in time, and if you can't, then you're going too fast.

[DesignFox]

I'm cranky, so since I'm at risk of getting snippy. I bow out.

Red light cameras are big brother. They cause more problems than they solve. I don't agree with them. Period.

[Fashion Lad!]

I was always taught that it's your own responsibility to stop in time without rear-ending someone or sliding through a light. Even when extenuating circumstances came into play, such as a heavy load, or slippery roads, it's still your own responsibility to stop in time, and if you can't, then you're going too fast.

Fine and dandy that if you rear-end someone, then it's your fault; however, what if I'm the one getting rear-ended. Yeah fine, I could have slammed on my brakes and got rear-ended, other person's fault. They hit me, I'm still injured. Great. All because I really didn't want to get busted but a fucking camera at an intersection.

I live in Minnesota. We get snow. LOTS of snow. TONS!!!! Of bad weather. I was going to work, about 1/8 of a mile before I was supposed to stop, I started to slow down... kept getting closer and closer, still, the stopping wasn't working. I was going 30 in a 45 at the time I started to slow down. STIIIIIIIIIIILLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL SLIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIDDDDDDDDDDIIIIIIIIIIII IIIIIIIIIIIIINGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG.

RED LIGHT!!! Slid right through that. My speed going through the red light, 5 mph hour, roughly. I still couldn't come to a complete stop.

It isn't always about speeding... sometimes, timing just isn't on your side and you get stuck in an awkward position of whether or not you're going to slam on your brakes or run the red light.

I AM ALWAYS GOING TO AVOID THE ACCIDENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I should not be punished for possibly saving someone's life. Oh, and if I'm at that cusp of whether or not to slam on the brakes, there should be no one else in the intersection.

We want safer roads. Everyone does.

Red light cameras do not equal safer roads. They actually equal more dangerous roads. Study after study has shown this. Why are you for making our roads safer through means that have proven to make our roads anything but? BLOWS my FUCKING mind.

[Nyoibo]

Funny, at every intersection in Adelaide that has a red light camera I've been at I've never seen a car run a red light, nor have I seen an accident, I have however seen both at others.

[Boozy]

Scientific data =/= "Things I've noticed in my everyday life"

[DrFaroohk]

How do these cameras cause more accidents? From what I'm reading, and I may be wrong, but it sounds like this:

Jimbob is driving down the street. He approaches the light. It's yellow.

"SHIT!" Jimbob says. "It's on yellow, I gotta book it!" so he hits the gas and tries to beat the yellow.

Suddenly the light turns red!

"SHIT!" Jimbob says again. "I GOTTA STOP OR THAT CAMERA WILL GET ME!"

Jimbob slams on his breaks.

Scenario 1 - the car behind him rearends him.

Scenario 2 - jimbob loses control of the car and crashes into more cars/trees/people/houses


How is that the camera's fault? It's Jimbob's fault for trying to beat the yellow (Yellow means you need to stop, it's not a game to see who can get their faster) and for slamming on his breaks. It's the guy's fault behind him for rear-ending him and following him too close. It may have been caused by the camera, but its not really the camera's fault. The camera wasn't doing anything wrong.

[DesignFox]

DrF, your scenario is not what myself, boozy, protege or fashionlad are talking about.

Besides, you've just proven our point- those people are going to do that regardless of the presence of cameras. I would rather the guy be an asshole and book it to "beat the red" than do what you've just described and cause an accident because he wants to avoid the camera.

If an officer was posted at that intersection, JimBob would receive a ticket for being an asshole.

[crazylegs]

Trucks and trailers don't stop on a dime. All the best planning in the world can't change physics.

And sorrrrry. But if its snowing or raining and the roads are slick, I'll be damned if I'm slamming on my brakes and skidding into the middle of the intersection.

I was always taught that it's your own responsibility to stop in time without rear-ending someone or sliding through a light. Even when extenuating circumstances came into play, such as a heavy load, or slippery roads, it's still your own responsibility to stop in time, and if you can't, then you're going too fast.

(Bolding my own)

I couldn't have put it better myself.

I spend an awful lot of time driving emergency vehicles (of two services), and as such I need to be able to drive within the exact letter of the law.

Red Lights run in last year whilst driving vehicles (including ambulances) - None

Speeding Cameras triggered while driving on non emergency calls - None

Time spent driving over the limit while driving on non emergency calls - None

I could argue that while driving a vehicle with a patient on the back that I couldn't stop for the red light as it would cause them too much discomfort for their broken leg. What I do instead is drive appropriately for the conditions and the cargo (to put it bluntly) and I anticipate and observe whats going on around me, that way I don't break the law.

Me not breaking the law = no tickets. It's not exactly rocket science.