America bashers who are American

[rahmota]

TNT is correct. I will agree that between the wars America took and slowed down in the amount of meddling they did but there has always been meddling in one form or another. Be it meddling in the affairs of the amerind nations (like giving smallpox infected blankets and oh that who attempted genocide and forcible relocation issue) the entire monroe doctrine imperialism which has been used as an excuse to take over or bully most of central and south america.. History is rife with examples of amierca's meddling.

Raps: I always love hearing about that british stiff upper lip. A better class of bastard indeed....

Nightwolf: You dont have to really identify yourself or label yourself to be involved and care about your country and your world. All you have to do is figure out what you believe. It doesnt matter if some of what you believe is in the conservative columns or if its in the liberal columns or its somewhere else. If you look at my political and personal beliefs I lean way over towards liberal on most things. On some other thigns I am a strict constitutionalist. On some other things , not many I will admit, I am abit more conservative. Its not a package deal where you have to say I'm conservative so I strictly believe just this. Its your life order ala carte!

[squall]

Oh sort of like what Bush II has done to Iraq with his invasion and occupation?

It was already like that when Saddam was there. It was already like that when the British occupied it decades ago. It was like that when the Ottoman Turks had control of it. The only good thing I can say about Saddam is that he ruled with an iron fist and kept the ethnic groups from killing each other. Either by threats or bribes of course. So we removed the stability factor by displacing Saddam, I'll agree with that notion. What frustrates the American military and demoralizes them is the fact that all the good they do over there (building schools, arming and training the Iraqis, reconstruction efforts) is undermined every day by extremists and by liberal unrest at home.

And what frustrates me personally is....the support given to extremists by left wingers who say that they are just defending their own country from the tyranny of our country. That is not the rhetoric they use, but that is what is going on. And the youtubers cheer when an American soldier is killed and calls the Islamic extremists the true patriots. That is what really frustrates me. If anybody on here agrees with the slaughter of our troops by a bunch or religious whackos, then I hope I never meet you in person. Our troops did not set the agenda. Our government did. A true patriot must be ready to defend against their own government, as somebody mentioned. If you call yourself an American, you must support your troops, not necessarily the cause they fight for. Support the troops...for their welfare and their families, wives, children.

I'm not a Bush supporter, but I once counted myself as one of the people who voted for him. There are more of us than you think. If you choose to hate me for that, I don't care...turn the forum into your own personal whipping block for all I care. Liberals used to be considered the "voice of reason" and had an even tempered voice...now they are just as belligerent when it comes to their America hating, feminism, activism, and unabashed reverse discrimination. Most of the country in 2001 thought Iraq housed WMDs and Al-Qaeda sympathies, even Democrats. Bush was on the right track with Afganistan, but going into Iraq was a mistake, but nobody knew for sure. Nobody on this forum could tell me with absolute certainty back in 2001 that Saddam would never pose a future threat, that he didn't have WMDs.

[rahmota]

Well let me tell you this. I am a proud member of a military family. I have relatives in country in iraq and afghanistan. I have friends and people I went to high school with in country. One of my friends is a combat medic in fallujah last time i heard from him. I will not and do not ever cheer when I hear about a us soldier getitng killed, kidnapped or injured. I know that stab of fear when that headline comes up. That sudden rush that do i know this person is it my cousin? And no matter if it was or was not my cousin that soldier was someone's cousin, brother, mother, father, husband or close friend. You are right it is not the soldier that sets policy. They only carry it out. You are right about the definition of a patriot. You are right about needing to support the troops, gods know our CiC and the powers that be wont and dont.

That is one other reason I am so tired of dubya and his supporters and the uber patriots who try to cram the whole "if you're not with us you're against us" and "the president is always right" attitude down everyone else's throat. You do not waste the lives of american soldiers on personal agendas and vendettas. You do not waste the lives of american soldiers on political grandstanding to show how tough and proactive you are. This is the real world not some game of Risk where all that happens if you loose is they get put back in the box until you can get another set of cards.

What frustrates the American military and demoralizes them is the fact that all the good they do over there (building schools, arming and training the Iraqis, reconstruction efforts) is undermined every day by extremists and by liberal unrest at home.

Actually one other thing is very demoralizing to the troops and this is from the horses mouth as it where. The lack of support and direction in their mission by the high command back in washington. The troops in the field (at least the ones I have had direct contact or communication with) feel a very distinct lack of care, support or direction from the top. Like their hung out to dry and are just twisting in the wind. Most of them no longer care about the Iraqi people and are just wanting to come home and get back to life in the real world.

In 2001 I could have and would have told you that saddam was a beaten man and there where no WMD in iraq. Why? The UN inspectors said so, our own intelligence community said so, the international intelligence community said so. But when Dubya wanted to come up with a reason to invade and occupy iraq then all of a sudden there was "overwhelming evidence" and "Undisputable signs" that Iraq had WMD. Where the hades realm where they? Saddam may have been many things. Evil, megalomaniac, a bully but he was not an idiot. If he had had WMD he would have used them either in Gulf I or Gulf II. Especially Gulf II given the amount of rhetoric the US and Dubya gave about beating and getting Saddam.

Squall I do not hate you for you POV or for supporting Bush II. You and I may not agree on the priorties or necesary actions this country needs to take or actually on many things but I do not hate you for that. I and many Liberals do not "Hate" america. We do not like the direction this country has taken, the attitude that is prevelent in the powers in charge and would like to see some improvement in that for the betterment of all humanity not just a certain social elite.

I am sorry that you feel I am trying to turn this into my personal whipping post as you put it. I thought this was a discussion group. I am not trying to stop or interfere or otherwise even really put down anythign you say. If anythign I find your comments interesting even if I do not agree with all of them. It shows how detente and discussion can resolve an issue more so than fists and flying missles. You bring up a point I refute it, I bring up a point you refute it. Its a discussion not a monologue. You play a vital and important part in this discussion and I thank you for it. I mean even back in the roman times when the general would ride throuhg the streets iin triumph there would be a slave standing behind him whipsering in his ear that all glory is fleeting. "Sic tranist gloria mundis"

Its all about building a better future for our children and grandchildren to live in. What that vision of the future is about. IMO many of the ideals of the founding fathers have been perverted and twisted or outright forgotten. Is it so wrong to want to have a world where discrimination, hate, intolerance and social inequality no longer exist?

[AFPheonix]

And what frustrates me personally is....the support given to extremists by left wingers who say that they are just defending their own country from the tyranny of our country. That is not the rhetoric they use, but that is what is going on. And the youtubers cheer when an American soldier is killed and calls the Islamic extremists the true patriots. That is what really frustrates me.

That's Youtube, though. There's some serious idiocy over there in the commenters, and all you need to see to prove that is every "DON'T READ THIS OR YOU PENIS WILL FALL OFF!!! FORWARD THIS ONTO 12 OTHER MESSAGE THREADS" bullshit.
I think you'll find 99% of liberals who want this war to end are thinking PRIMARILY about the soldiers' welfare. They want them out of there so they aren't dying for a lost cause.
As for "left wingers" who say that extremists are just defending their own country: well guess what, quite a few resistance group see us as an occupier, and people from that side of the world don't take too kindly to occupiers. It's not applause for what extremists are doing, it's recognizing that not everyone thinks like a Westerner.

and had an even tempered voice...now they are just as belligerent when it comes to their America hating, feminism, activism, and unabashed reverse discrimination. Most of the country in 2001 thought Iraq housed WMDs and Al-Qaeda sympathies, even Democrats.

....Feminism? Yeah. Someone's been listening to a little too much Limbaugh, apparently.
A lot of the country, including many in my state, marched to tell the President that he needed to wait and be patient before starting this war.
Frankly, the only person I ever talked to who was FOR the war when it started was a Persian girl, oddly enough, and it was because of a family vendetta against Saddam for the Iran-Iraq war.

[CancelMyService]

Dragging the troops into the debate kind of bothers me, because it's one of the clubs used to beat anti-war people over the head with. To suggest someone hates America or the troops because they disagree with policy and/or how the troops are being used infuriates me. I don't know how wanting out soliders to not be put in harm's way for either no reason or the wrong reasons somehow equates to "you don't support the troops". Too many people think we should just wave the flag and cheer, and don't think about what the troops are being asked to do.

Also:

Most of the country in 2001 thought Iraq housed WMDs and Al-Qaeda sympathies, even Democrats.

That's because the people voting to authorize the war did so based on information that has since proven to be inaccurate at best or flat out lies at worst.

[squall]

....Feminism? Yeah. Someone's been listening to a little too much Limbaugh, apparently

Although Limbaugh has some valid points, I don't care much for him. He is bloated and has many moral issues of his own to deal with. One being his blatant abuse of presciption meds, but another rant entirely.

Yeah, I said feminism. How is it that in today's society, one can get away with writing a book called "Are Men Necessary" and being considered smart and sophisticated. Try the reverse, and you are called a sexist and woman hater, and reviled. Since the 80s, liberal media has pictured women as being the brains behind every marriage, the "boss" if you will, and the men have been given the image as being subservient, dolts, or jerks. This image receives no criticism, but I regard as a form of bigotry. In custody hearings, the ball is in the womens' court from the get go in determining custody, nevermind the ability of some women to support their children financially. All she has to say is that she suffered injustices at the hands of the man.

Another thing of mine is that so called "smart and sophisticated" tv reaches the soft underbelly of morality. Women using sex like a handshake, just barely learning a man's name (Sex in the City), and then going on to talk to their friends about it in all the glory details. Men in the show are pictured just as one-dimensional props for their sexual escapades. On "Will and Grace", I remember hearing somebody instruct a pregnant lady on what to eat during her pregnancy to be sure that her child will turn out gay. And besides, that drug addict lady with the high voice is annoying, let alone she is a drug addict with no moral scruples and parades it. All of this gutter trash is well received by critics. And if some of us don't like it, we are called "unsophisticated, bigots, and backwards". I just don't like where it is taking our society.

Granted, I am not a Christian. I have no religious preference. I still live by a moral code. I reject religious fundamentalism. But as a conservative, I consider myself among the "old guard" who vainly are trying to keep morality and decency in society. Unfortunately, they are no longer in vogue. Tv has become scandalous and in your face. Where religious people see trash tv as sinful, I see it as seedy and reviling in filth.

Speaking of which...liberalism is in vogue. Celebrities carry a big megaphone around anytime they have anything to say. The message has become loud and clear....there is no place for conservatism in Hollywood. In this celebrity obsessed culture, kids and young adults soak up this liberal propoganda like a sponge. Whatever Hollywood says goes. youtube and myspace are virtual liberal meccas, where voting Democratic is "in style". Granted there are also racists on youtube, the lowest common denominator can make their voice heard and have no fear of repercussions.

College professors are overwhelmingly liberal. Over 90% in ivy league schools high 80s and 90s in all others. In the hiring process, conservative applicants are single out. The status quo amounts to bigotry.

All of this is ensuring that the future of this country is governed by one party only.

At the heart of all this discontent....President Bush. He's ruined it for the rest of us. Now the whole country shall pay the price for years to come. But I make no apologies for my beliefs, and will continue to stick by them.

I will touch on the effects of recent civil rights and reverse discrimination another time. I will say this though....liberals are just as guilty as conservatives in keeping the playing field uneven.

[AFPheonix]

I'm not disagreeing with you that there's morons in the "liberal" camp. Stupid knows no race, color, or creed, as we all know from having to deal with the general public on a daily basis.
"Liberalism" as you see it today is a shadow of what it was even 30 years ago. This country overall is far more conservative than it ever has been. As for myself, I am not a member of any political party. I am registered independent, I have voted for and will continue to vote for who I feel is the best person for the job, regardless of what party they're in. I will grant you though that the Republican party got very bloated and full of itself over the last 8 years and is experiencing a decline. That's how politics work, however.

As for the feminism thing, ok, so there's a few stupid books out. (I'm still trying to figure out how the pregnant woman from that Will and Grace episode figures into the feminism argument). There's going to be extremists in any movement, regardless of what it stands for. Does that mean that they stand for what the majority stand for? No, of course not.
As for feminism in the media like Sex and the City, I'm afraid that you're going to have to accept that there's now going to be shows that have females in what are traditionally male roles. Consider older tv shows. Let's pick, oh, say, Star Trek as an example. Although it was a progressive show, females, with few exceptions, were flat characters there for the purpose of being boinked. Don't get upset just because there's a little turnaround.
White males still have it good compared to most everyone else, even white females, who are STILL making less on average than male coworkers who are equal to them in every way with the exception of genitalia.

And also addressing morality in the media:
Listen to old rock songs or rhythm and blues, and I'll bet money that your ears will turn red.

[CancelMyService]

Limbaugh has valid points?


Sorry, my brain kinda froze up after reading that and I need to reboot........

[squall]

I don't agree with Limbaugh most of the time. Especially when he started tearing down Michael J. Fox's nerve condition like a schoolyard bully who does not understand that some people can't help the way they are. Another far-right conservative I don't fully agree with is Ann Coulter. She is possibly the most evil conservative of them all. She says things like "we should scrutinize the Muslims flying on our airlines a little bit further, because after all, we can pick a Muslim out of a crowd and they are the face of terrorism as we know it."

As far as the Will and Grace example....that was not included in the feminism argument. That fit into my immoral television example. Different paragraph. Will and Grace is a liberal show always trying to push the envelope. Any gay person who tries to lean their child to a certain sexual preference is just as bad as a homophobe who says "no child of mine is gonna be gay", and you know a comment like that would receive negative press in the media, but the pro-gay comment is called, "smart, sophisticated, witty, hip." And the contradictary thing about pop culture is that they claim to be so accepting of gays, but the media has a field day when they manage to shove a gay celebrity out of the closet. And they talk about it more than those 14 soldiers that just crashed in the blackhawk helicopter the other day. A month later, the media is still talking about the new gay life of Lance Bass, and those 14 soldiers......."um....how many died again?" I find this outing of gays to be alienating, not accepting, like a freakshow for everyone to gawk at. Whether gays feel the same...I really don't know....some really seem to revel in the attention.

Somewhat off subject, I have no doubt the republicans will lose this presidential race, no doubt in my mind! And I accept that....for all that the republicans have been in a decline in the very immorality they claim to fight against. They have become arrogant, spoiled with power. They are fizzling out as fast as an untied balloon. I almost welcome the democrat victory that is sure to come. Anything (hopefully) better than the state the country is in right now.

But I choose to speak for the Republicans because nobody will stand up and speak for them. Overwhelmed in all corners of the internet, they seem content to remain quiet and ashamed as the world around them mocks them.

[squall]

And also addressing morality in the media:
Listen to old rock songs or rhythm and blues, and I'll bet money that your ears will turn red.

It's funny you mention that because I am a big fan of hard rock and metal. It is art. I am somewhat picky in my choosing though. What I find morally upsetting in some music....even in the older songs.....are the ones that try to get you into really bad illegal drugs. Like a certain old song called "Cocaine". I am willing to overlook content and lyrics if there is extreme talent.

[AFPheonix]

The gay outing in the media doesn't prove that the media is trying to equal opportunity for gays, it just proves that society in general is not entirely accepting of gays, therefore if someone who is famous is gay, it's still tittilating. I agree about the dubious newsworthyness. There's frankly a LOT on the news these days that frankly shouldn't be there, and that one chick that ripped up the Paris Hilton story because it was placed ahead of a war story by her producers deserves to be lauded.
Unfortunately, that's a side effect of a few other things going on in society, such as consolidation of newspapers, radio, and tv channels into fewer companies, declining newspaper readership by a less-aware populace, etc.
Ok, my bad on the Will and Grace thing. You had it in the same paragraph as a rant about the image of women on tv so I got confused. I haven't ever seen that particular clip, I stopped really watching tv in college as I couldn't get any reception in the town I was in and just have never really liked watching it since. I'll bet money though that the incident you're quoting was a gag. Yes. Something to be laughed at because it was ridiculous. Not some part of "the gay agenda" attempting to turn everyone gay.
My point with the old music comment is that there's never really been a strong current of morality in anything. Hell, Shakespeare had a bit about not being able to get an erection when drunk in Hamlet, for crying out loud.

[AFPheonix]

But I choose to speak for the Republicans because nobody will stand up and speak for them. Overwhelmed in all corners of the internet, they seem content to remain quiet and ashamed as the world around them mocks them.

Uhhhhh......the Republicans are still in power in 2 branches of government and hold sway over about half the country. I don't think they need that much white-knighting. In any case, there's enough conservative sites around that I think they're ok. The internet is a big place. If you can find havens for transgendered furries, there's definitely places to find Republicans

[Rapscallion]

Hell, Shakespeare had a bit about not being able to get an erection when drunk in Hamlet, for crying out loud.

Wasn't that in Macbeth, or is there a similar scene in both?

Rapscallion

[rahmota]

OKay Squall: You know there are 400+ channels on tv and even more on radio. I am sur eyou can find somethign you like and want to watch while leaving what others want to watch alone. I mean I do not like everything on tv for a variety of reasons ranging from my brain hurts at how stupid it is (spongebob, south park etc...) to I find it personally disgusting. Usually those are the sickly sweet sacharin filled painless G rated crude that the christian conservatives are alwys touting as fun family friendly television. BORING! I am sorry but I do not want to go back to the 50s tv where a person could not even be allowed to say the word pregnant much less showing two people in the same bed.

Like AFP said Sex is a part of entertainment and culture. look at the history of the printed word going clear back to the christian bible. Yes even the christian bible has sex in it. Song of Solomon anyone? And please do not say that is just an allgory for love of your god as thats just a cop out. It is blatently and apparently a love sonnet (and very erotic one) to the lover of the writer. Also the Khama Sutra is a religious text of the hindu. Nothing subtlke about that and it is definately one that the followers are supposed to practice.

Sex is nothing but a natural normal healthy part of a culture, society and person's life. To keep it hidden and shameful is what is sick and wrong. Yeah using it for cheap laughs and sudden ratings is stupid but then again making a woman cover her belly button or wear a burka because its a shameful thing to see is stupid too.

Will and Grace is a show I dont watch. Why? Not because its offensive or insulting. Although I do have a few homosexual friends who get a bit miffed at it on occasion. But mainly because I find the story uninteresting and ungripping. But do I want to see shows like that banned merely because I find them stupid or insulting to my brain. Well to be honest no. I may not like them I may not want my children watching a spongebob or south park but thats my choice and right as a parent and not the business of the government, church groups or anyone, and I REPEAT ANYONE else! It is my life and my children's life. I am the adult and I control the remote. I dont wanna watch a show I turn the channel. You dont wanna watch a show change the channel thats what they made more of them for.

Yeah I too am irritated by the dumbing down of the media. But thats just a by product of the rise of capitalistic values where money and what can be sold means more than the truth or anythign else. And lets face it the newsmedia are first and foremost a business. If telling the public about britney's latest mistep or the latest homosexual to be outed sells more than dead and dying and injured soldiers then they are going to go with the homosexual affairs of celebreties everytime. Just some more vaunted capitalistic values there. Nothing liberal about that.

About the homosexual attention getting etc... I have a good friend who is a homosexual. He hates the way the conservatives portray homosexuals as pedophillic evil immoral scum. I mean before he came out he was an eagle scout and shook hands with the governor and all that jazz. He comes out of the closet and hes forced to turn in his eagle scout badge. Hes prohibited from marrying the person he loves. If anyone finds out they hide their children away from him. Excuse me hes homosexual thats a totally different thing than pedophile. Want to find a pedophile you'll have a better luck looking in the catholic church. Nothing personal just straight up facts. My friend hates the attention from hate groups and having his car spray painted with such lovely terms of endearment as "faggot" and worse. All thanks to the attitude of hatred and intolerance brought about by the conservative christian morality police. And I'll stop right here on that before I let my temper get me in trouble.

But I choose to speak for the Republicans because nobody will stand up and speak for them. Overwhelmed in all corners of the internet

HA! Its a big internet and believe me there are places that are definate republican and conservative strongholds. I got ran off a site because I wasnt republican enough. I am grateful that it took a british site run by a brit to let a yankee speak out against wealth and priviledge and say things that gasp where not politically correct republican propaganda. (Now thats irony in action) If you cant find these places then either you're not looking hard enough or soemthing is wrong with your search engine.

Raps: I am not certain about that. I think I recall it in both plays but it has been abit since I've read either in their entirety. But then again Many of his plays have a bit of naughty bawdy parts in them. Chaucer's canterbury tales has ass kissing. There is mention of a lady's beard.. etc..... Whats old is new again. The only difference is with the world web and sat tv we can have instant distribution in glorious full stero sound and high definition color of this stuff.

[AFPheonix]

Wasn't that in Macbeth, or is there a similar scene in both?

Rapscallion

Oh probably. I haven't read the play since I was in high school. I just remember I was the only one in my class who got what he was talking about.