Are schools too strict.

[Rageaholic]

I think they are, at least in my experience with them (and what others have told me). I think this "zero tolerance" stuff is being taken too far. The way I see it, detention is fair for people who get in fights, do drugs, threaten people with violence, or cause repetitive disruption. In some cases, I think the cops should be called, but the problem is it's never that stuff that gets noticed.

It's always crap such as being a few seconds late for class (which class usually starts a minute after the bell anyway), not doing homework (which should affect the students grade, not get them detention), and other minor crap.

A good example is a kid in my brothers class who was drawing pictures of dead classmates. When my mother reported it to the principle, he said that "A 6th graders perception is different from ours". I mean, I'm not saying I would have liked to have seen him get detention, but they could have at least looked into it.

I also think schools are too controlling. This is why I hate that detention for no homework crap. I also hated how you had to have a teachers permission to use the restroom or get a drink of water. I mean, these are basic human rights and needs! Why should anyone be refused those things? There are many other examples I could give of this, including thinking they know the student better than the student knows himself, but that would take a while to cover.

This turned into more of a rant than an arguement for anything, but I could see this turning into a heated debate later on. I know it's not the best written stuff compared to what I've seen here, but I just had to get this off my chest.

[BroomJockey]

I also think schools are too controlling. This is why I hate that detention for no homework crap. I also hated how you had to have a teachers permission to use the restroom or get a drink of water. I mean, these are basic human rights and needs! Why should anyone be refused those things?

While I do think often schools are too strict, I attribute it to shitty parenting and a sue-happy culture rather than an actual desire from the school to be so. Fix the parents, and schools would probably ease off.

Now, addressing the quoted section: Yes, they're basic human needs, but at the same time, teachers need to try and provide an education to the students. If a student randomly gets up and walks out of a 30 person class, that will create a disruption. If multiple students do it, you can chew up a lot of class time. Enforcing a policy of asking minimizes frivolous trips (Bah, class sucks, I'll wander over to the water fountain on the other side of the building), and also shortens the duration of the disruption, since everyone knows why the person is leaving (or at least the stated reason), and doesn't need to discuss it.

[Flyndaran]

While I do think often schools are too strict, I attribute it to shitty parenting and a sue-happy culture rather than an actual desire from the school to be so. Fix the parents, and schools would probably ease off.

Now, addressing the quoted section: Yes, they're basic human needs, but at the same time, teachers need to try and provide an education to the students. If a student randomly gets up and walks out of a 30 person class, that will create a disruption. If multiple students do it, you can chew up a lot of class time. Enforcing a policy of asking minimizes frivolous trips (Bah, class sucks, I'll wander over to the water fountain on the other side of the building), and also shortens the duration of the disruption, since everyone knows why the person is leaving (or at least the stated reason), and doesn't need to discuss it.

That only works if kids are incapable of lying about where they are going. Not in my world.

[AdminAssistant]

do drugs, threaten people with violence

These are not detention situations - these are "call the cops and send the kid to juvie" situations.

[BroomJockey]

That only works if kids are incapable of lying about where they are going. Not in my world.

You know, it doesn't actually matter. The principle still works. If you'd think it through, you'd have realized that.

[Rageaholic]

While I do think often schools are too strict, I attribute it to shitty parenting and a sue-happy culture rather than an actual desire from the school to be so. Fix the parents, and schools would probably ease off.

Now, addressing the quoted section: Yes, they're basic human needs, but at the same time, teachers need to try and provide an education to the students. If a student randomly gets up and walks out of a 30 person class, that will create a disruption. If multiple students do it, you can chew up a lot of class time. Enforcing a policy of asking minimizes frivolous trips (Bah, class sucks, I'll wander over to the water fountain on the other side of the building), and also shortens the duration of the disruption, since everyone knows why the person is leaving (or at least the stated reason), and doesn't need to discuss it.

Ah the sue happy people, that could be a rant of it's own.

As for the bathroom thing, what if teachers refuse to let students go? I mean, just because it causes a minor (or not so minor) disruption doesn't mean they shouldn't be allowed to go. Besides no matter how much of a disruption they cause asking to go to the bathroom, it can't be bad as if that student has an accident in class. Explaining isn't too bad, but having to have permission is another. Of course, they could also be covering their ass in case some kid tries to leave the building. Grr...

These are not detention situations - these are "call the cops and send the kid to juvie" situations.

Depending on how severe the instance is, yes.

[BroomJockey]

As for the bathroom thing, what if teachers refuse to let students go?

Fire their asses.

[Greenday]

I've known strict teachers who threatened people with detentions if they went to the bathroom or water. Almost always, the people doing it were the ones just trying to skip class or cause a disruption. But even then, I've never known any teacher to ever follow through on that threat and I know even if they tried, they'd never get away with it.

[guywithashovel]

When I was in school (1990s), most teachers would tell us at the beginning of the year that they rarely gave hall passes for restroom needs and that we should take care of our restroom needs before or after class. However, as the year progressed, they would usually give passes to students who needed it. I tend to think it was a psychology thing---acting really strict and tough about it, but once you got the point across that you didn't want anyone trying to get out of class for petty reasons, you lightened up. To my memory, students asking for restroom passes never caused a disturbance in any of my classes. Also, I think they were trying to teach us to try to take care of restroom needs before our responsibilities (like class).

Now, when I was in seventh grade, there was a rumor that a boy in my class had practically begged our math teacher to let him use the restroom, but ended up having diarrhea in his pants because said math teacher wouldn't allow it. I'm not sure if that was true, though. I suspect that it wasn't, because the rumor only lasted a little while, and every time it came up, there were always several kids saying it didn't happen for every kid saying it did.

Now, as for the initial point of the thread, I actually think schools are too lenient in many cases. I even started a thread of my own about this a while ago For example, I actually think detentions are usually too easy. Most of the time, the kids just have to sit quietly in a room for a predetermined amount of time. If they want, they can work on their homework, but they don't have to. I hardly think this is a punishment. Personally, I think the kids in detention should be helping the janitor out. They should be cleaning desks, mopping floors, cleaning the bathrooms, cleaning the toilets (the dirtier the work, the better).

I'm sure it's probably unrealistic to think that would happen in very many schools, since most of the parents of these types of kids would be outraged that their "precious little snowflakes" are being made to do such things (even though they were breaking school rules to begin with).

But, in any sense, I still think schools let too much stuff go.

[Nyoibo]

Depending on how severe the instance is, yes.

It's still breaking the law, not just school rules and now days to break anything up teachers have to call the cops, because god forbid they touched the kid with a knife to stop him stabbing someone.

Sorry, sounding a bit bitter there.

[DrFaroohk]

I'm all for them restricting bathroom and drinking fountain privileges - I myself used to be one of those kids who would use those as excuses to get out of class just because I was bored. Of course there are special situations, but most of the time how often do you really have to go to the bathroom? Every 15 minutes or something?

I don't know about having kids clean up with the janitor - that seems like a liability. I'm sure if someone didn't complain about it being like child labor, some idiot kid would hurt himself, or die trying to huff the cleaning products, and there'd be all hell to pay then.

I DO think they are too strict about minor bullshit problems and they ignore things that actually matter. Like the crap with hats. That's just plain stupid. "Oh but its a distraaaaaaaaaaction!" No it isn't. If you're distracted by a plain old baseball cap then you need medication. Unless its a big flamboyant hat with flashing lights and tassles and stuff. "Oh but its disrespectful!" It's not that either. Disrespectful would be "Mr. Garrison is a cocksucker!" or "Hill Valley High sucks dick!"

I've seen teachers cracking down on things like a kid wearing a hat, or having a kid arrested because he had a pair of tweezers in his pocket, or expelling him because he had a cellphone in his car, and then ignoring things like drug deals, fights, drag racing in the parking lot, stuff like that. I always thought it was because they had to appear to be doing their jobs by being authoritative, but the fact is it takes too long to deal with real problems like drug deals. That means investigating and filing reports and searches and paperwork and answering questions and more paperwork...so why bother with those? They're not going to stop those anyway, but they have to appear productive all the same.

[Rageaholic]

When I was in school (1990s), most teachers would tell us at the beginning of the year that they rarely gave hall passes for restroom needs and that we should take care of our restroom needs before or after class. However, as the year progressed, they would usually give passes to students who needed it. I tend to think it was a psychology thing---acting really strict and tough about it, but once you got the point across that you didn't want anyone trying to get out of class for petty reasons, you lightened up. To my memory, students asking for restroom passes never caused a disturbance in any of my classes. Also, I think they were trying to teach us to try to take care of restroom needs before our responsibilities (like class).

Now, when I was in seventh grade, there was a rumor that a boy in my class had practically begged our math teacher to let him use the restroom, but ended up having diarrhea in his pants because said math teacher wouldn't allow it. I'm not sure if that was true, though. I suspect that it wasn't, because the rumor only lasted a little while, and every time it came up, there were always several kids saying it didn't happen for every kid saying it did.

Now, as for the initial point of the thread, I actually think schools are too lenient in many cases. I even started a thread of my own about this a while ago For example, I actually think detentions are usually too easy. Most of the time, the kids just have to sit quietly in a room for a predetermined amount of time. If they want, they can work on their homework, but they don't have to. I hardly think this is a punishment. Personally, I think the kids in detention should be helping the janitor out. They should be cleaning desks, mopping floors, cleaning the bathrooms, cleaning the toilets (the dirtier the work, the better).

I'm sure it's probably unrealistic to think that would happen in very many schools, since most of the parents of these types of kids would be outraged that their "precious little snowflakes" are being made to do such things (even though they were breaking school rules to begin with).

But, in any sense, I still think schools let too much stuff go.

It was your thread which made me want to start this. Having kids do work is borderline excessive, especially if the reason they were being punished was such little things like being late for class, dress codes violations, and not doing homework (that should only affect their grade like it does in college).

I'm curious, what kind of stuff do you think schools let go that needs to be stopped? I would agree that they go after the wrong stuff, but the rules at face are just too strict imo. I was one of those "good students" who never caused trouble, yet not even I could follow all the rules.

[AdminAssistant]

How hard is it to follow a dress code? At my school, it was stuff like, no offensive t-shirts, shorts/skirts 3 inches above the knees, tank tops had to have a wide strap (I'm thinking it was the width of two fingers?). Baseball hats are banned for a few reasons - you can hide test answers under the brim, it conceals the students eyes, and, in inner cities, gang colors. Just don't wear a hat in school. Would you wear a hat at church? To your job, where it's not part of a uniform?

School is a structured environment, and structured environments have rules. Like - you go to the bathroom between classes, you have to do homework, you have to dress a certain way. What's wrong with that?

[BroomJockey]

How hard is it to follow a dress code?

That's well and fine for your school, which seems to have a relatively lax code, but at my old junior high, I heard about new rules being brought in - no exposed belly buttons, no short skirts (something like 3 inches above the knees, I dunno), shirts must not be translucent, neck lines weren't allowed to be below a certain point, and a few stupid rules for guys I can't remember.

Now, keep in mind that I grew up in basically a large town where all the clothing stores were located in the Wal-Mart equivalents, so you get to buy whatever they say is in fashion. And I heard about this because my best friend's sister was sent home for violating the strap-width rule.

[Flyndaran]

...
School is a structured environment, and structured environments have rules. Like - you go to the bathroom between classes, you have to do homework, you have to dress a certain way. What's wrong with that?

I refuse to pee my pants for anyone. If I had to go, then I would go and heaven help the moron that stood in my way.
I think freedom of speech should be a right for youths too. Don't forget that some seniors are over 18 and shouldn't have any of their rights ignored.