Are schools too strict.

[Nyoibo]

(Note: Now I really do have to do some homework, so I may not respond any time soon, if at all. Not that it matters much, I guess, my two cents is only worth as much as everyone else's...)

Homework! haven't you been listening? Are you some kind of braindead mindless automaton?

[JuniorMintz]

Homework! haven't you been listening? Are you some kind of braindead mindless automaton?

Apparently. What can I say, I drank the Kool-Aide and it was delicious.

[Lace Neil Singer]

I agree with Juniormintz.

As for the ridiculous statement "Blah blah you choose to work there, kids don't choose to go to that school"; if they don't like the rules where they go, then they can leave and go to another school. I managed to do just that cuz neither myself or my parents liked the way that the head dealt with bullies (ie, not at all). I left after fifth year and went to a new school; this one did not have uniforms, had smaller classes and slightly laxer rules than the other one... but came down on bullying like a rod of iron. If you can't find a school that allows mobiles, then get homeschooling.

Again, you will not curl up and die just cuz you can't text your best friend during maths. You can easily be reached in an emergency, cuz get this, the school has a phone and can reach you. A phone is not something like an inhaler or medication and you will not suffer terribly if you have to be without it for a few hours.

[DesignFox]

Yea, while there have been a couple examples of officials going over the top, for the most part I'm hearing a lot of "wah, I can't do whatever the hell I want!"

That's life.

Trust me, I was a little spitfire. I raised a few ruckus's in my time, arguing over rules that I disagreed with. I did so in a manner that kept myself out of the detention room, and I either got a compromise made, or learned why the rule was in existance and why it was impossible to change.

I once got a class that had been cancelled reinstated for a group of seniors who wanted to take it.

In college, I was a big part of getting our IT department overhauled and getting new people in office who knew what the fuck they were doing.

You can sometimes make a difference if you do things the right way. You can't always change things to your liking- but you just might learn something in the process. I found as a kid that as long as I understood the REASON for a rule, it made the rule a lot easier to bear following. I knew I wasn't going to be in school forever.

And like Lace said, (granted, it is not easy and can be an expensive choice for your parents) you have options. Don't like the rules at the public school? Take your ass to private school. Hire a tutor. Shit, I think in my state sometimes you can manage to switch districts....

[Lace Neil Singer]

The second school I went to was in another district. It was also further away from where I lived than the first school was, so I had to get up earlier in order to be in class on time. However, for the reasons I already stated, I felt it worth it.

Strangely enough, with the arrival of a new head a few years after I left, the first school is now a very desirable secondary that has a massive waiting list and people actually fight to get their daughters accepted there.

[RecoveringKinkoid]

First off, who gets to decide what is and is not civil disobedience? Second, you didn't put any qualifiers in your blanket statement like only when discussing children disrupting normal school activities.

.

I think most of us can figure it out.

[Rageaholic]

You can sometimes make a difference if you do things the right way. You can't always change things to your liking- but you just might learn something in the process. I found as a kid that as long as I understood the REASON for a rule, it made the rule a lot easier to bear following. I knew I wasn't going to be in school forever.

You're right. Understanding reasoning behind rules can make more sense of the rule. However, that doesn't mean the reason behind the rule is right. I understand the no cell phones in class rule just fine, but outside of class is another issue. Why should anyone care if someone is phoning their mom during lunch break? Isn't that the students free time? Outright banning cell phones is excessive, ESPECIALLY having security drag you out of class over it.

Another one, detention for not being in class when the bell rings (after 3 strikes). When I was in middle school, I was given 5 minutes in between classes to make it to class. That would be plenty of time assuming.

a. you don't have to go to the bathroom.
b. The teacher from a previous class doesn't keep you after.
c. You don't get beat up in the hallway (it happened to someone I know).

The reasoning behind the rule as I was told was to make sure students get to class on time and discourge goofing around in the halls. They enforced the rule the way it was because in their mind, if students were to get away with coming to class a couple of seconds late, they might not bother coming to class at all. However, some teachers were dicks about it (like my math teacher) and would write you up if you were even a second late.

I think the rule is bull shit because being a few seconds late for class is hardly a behavior issue. Just because they want to stop those who skip class, doesn't mean the students who try to come to class on time but are just a couple of seconds late should pay. There is a line between behavior issues and just screwing up. That same reasoning is why I think homework should be kept out of behavior problems, especially with students who just don't get the homework. As many posters have pointed out, when a harsh, to the letter rule is put in place, good students often pay the price. Lines need to be drawn.

And switching schools or homeschooling isn't always an option, especially with all this truancy crap (which is another issue on it's own). As a kid, I HAD to be there. I didn't WANT to be their, I HAD to, and idiotic rules like that made it absolute hell for me by the time I made it to middle school. Luckly, my mom got me out of middle school, but I don't think all other students have that luxery. They need to stop being so god damned restrictive of students rights and actually let them have a say in things, but from what I have seen at the school, that will never happen.

So in a nutshell, behavior and safety rules are one thing, but rules punishing students for screwing up are BS. And I don't wanna hear this "In the real world" crap that is often used as a defense of idiotic school rules. School is not the "real world" as far as I'm concerned.

[DesignFox]

You're right, school is not the real world. School is designed to prepare you for the real world. In life, you may have a boss that will fire you for being late to work. MOST places have some type of leeway for occasional "screwups" or the inevitable shit hitting the fan. But fact is, sometimes your boss is just a dickwad.

And I didn't disagree that calling security over a cell phone issue was excessive. Getting a warning...appropriate. Dragging the kid from the lunch room... Not appropriate.

In the few instances you have described, it doesn't seem to be the rule itself that needs changing- rather how the rule is being enforced.

Unless parents take some interest or involvement, or students complain intelligently and through appropriate channels, nothing will change. In fact, they will likely only get worse.

There is such a thing as a happy medium. In my experience, many teachers had no problem with bending rules. If you blatantly ignored rules, or starting taking advantage of the teacher's good will, THEN they started to smack down on the most innocuous of things.

Hell, I had a teacher I bitched about constantly back in HS. In her class, the only, I mean ABSOLUTE only excuse for missing class was if you were in the hospital or dead. If you did not have a doctor's note, she docked you for missing class. It didn't matter if you were on a class trip for another class. It didn't matter if you missed class to go to a special event with your parents. You were responsible for the classwork. Period.

Guess what? We all went to class, got the classwork from a classmate, or dealt with the consequences.

Ten years later, I look back and think that she was one of the best teachers I ever had.

In real life, you don't get to miss work without a doctor's note. You need to be approved to have the time off to do the special things you want to do. You don't get to skip work whenever you damn well please-there are consequences to your actions.

[Pedersen]

School is not the "real world" as far as I'm concerned.

QFT. If the real world were like school, then I'd have killed myself long ago. I've mentioned it elsewhere, but here's a perfect example: I was punished for letting my stuff get stolen once. And then, when it was about to happen again some months later and I defended myself, I got punished for defending myself.

People were allowed (hell, sometimes it seemed they were encouraged) to use me as a punching bag, and I was only allowed to take it. Verbal abuse, physical abuse, and emotional abuse, all a part of the every day school experience. Of course, I didn't have a choice as to where I went to school: My parents made the choice for me. And since they didn't understand how horrid it was for me, they made me go to the same school that the neighbors went to. Add in the crappiest line ever uttered by parents: "Just ignore them, they're just jealous of you."

Now, here in the real world, if I get a beating, I have legal recourse. I can do something about it. If someone becomes abusive towards me, I can do something about it. I can move, I can get a new job, I can report them to the police/get them charged with a crime (where applicable), I can sue them in court, etc.

As a child in school, your recourse amounts to jack. Other people make the choices, and if you don't like the choices, you can't do anything about it.

It's no wonder teen suicides happen, nor is it any wonder than school shootings happen. With the way we treat these kids, it's a wonder that it doesn't happen more.

No, school is no more preparation for the real world than writing a bad check is preparation for jail time.

[DesignFox]

Wow. sounds like you guys went to some pretty shitty schools.

I mean, my schools certainly had their share of issues....but there were always good teachers there to help...we had some very good admins...and well, they actually listened to our petitions and our concerns....in fact, that's partially what we had a student government for...

My schools weren't exactly small, either.

[Lace Neil Singer]

The all girls' school I went to was shit, but there's no reason to paint all schools with the same brush. The second one was a mixed school, and I got on better there.

It seems to me a bit silly to have such an extreme opinion based on personal experience; if I was doing so, I'd agree with you.

Oh, and school shootings really aren't that common; nor is there an excuse for them. Anyone who takes out their problems by killing innocent people is the lowest of the low. I was bullied horribly in school, so much that I developed an eating disorder and self harmed, but I never considered committing mass murder, or throwing in the towel by committing suicide. But that's another thread entirely.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15111438/
If it happened all the time, then it wouldn't be news.

[DesignFox]

Yea, you couldn't pay me to go back to middle school, that's for sure. But I had some very good teachers who helped me through the tough times (one of whom I still stay in contact with).

All of us within the social circle were picked on at one time or another. All these years later, I'm seeing many of these people that did not get along as kids, contacting each other and saying hello via Facebook.

It seems silly to throw out the baby with the bathwater. Just because some authorities are dickheads, doesn't mean the rules need to be thrown out. They possibly need to be re-evaluated...particularly how they are enforced...and perhaps, those that can recall having a tough time in school, when it's time for their kids to go to school, will pay attention to their children and get involved with the school.

Maybe I was lucky to live in a good, middle-class area with lots of parent-teacher involvement. *shrug* I don't know.

[JuniorMintz]

You're right. Understanding reasoning behind rules can make more sense of the rule. However, that doesn't mean the reason behind the rule is right.

Did you happen to see my post from earlier? I already agreed with you that sometimes, the reasoning behind the rule in question may not be fair or reasonable (for the sake of continuity, let's continue with the cell phone example.) Still, that doesn't excuse shitty behavior for the sake of shitty behavior. Several suggestions were made on how to bring up the issue with authority figures in your school in a more effective and mature manner.

And in defense of the cell phone ban *during* break times, it's possible that the school has banned cell phones due to misuse NOT related to in class distraction or cheating. Text messages are yet another way to harass other kids, for example, and camera phones/picture messaging is even worse. What if someone took out their phone in the locker room and started snapping pictures?

(Side Note: My father is an engineer working for the federal government0 on a site with about a billion security clearances, and the only cell phones allowed on site are your most basic bare-bone models. Absolutely NO camera phones allowed, in order to protect the security of the projects that are being worked on. Poor guy desperately wants an iPhone but won't get one because he'll never get to use it!)

[DrFaroohk]

My teachers were pretty much all jerkoffs. It didn't matter what situation I was in, they always twisted it to make sure it was my fault. For example...if I got in a fight, well I called the other guy a name, so it was my fault. Ok, so that tells me that it's perfectly ok to beat the crap out of someone if he calls you a name. Not so, because the next time it happened, it was my fault, because calling someone a name is no reason to get into a fight!

If I missed class, I'd ask the teacher for my work, to which she'd say "I'll get it to you." Then she'd never get it to me. Then she'd fail me for not doing my work. Oh, its because I was supposed to bug her and bug her and bug her for it! Asking her once doesn't count. Ok, so does that mean that if I'm told to do something and I forget, it's ok, because I wasn't pestered enough about it? Hmmm? That was the case yesterday. I see its changed now to fit your convenience.

Or in my high school, if you were a senior and had good enough grades, you were allowed to leave during study halls. That was best during mornings, when you got to sleep in, or last period, and you could leave early. And my privileges were pulled because last year I didn't have the grades. But hold on! The rules say "This current semesters grades". It doesn't say last years grades. Oh, that doesn't matter, because it doesn't fit with your interpretation of the rules? We're following rules based on interpretation now? Gee whiz, just yesterday you were screaming about how "rules are rules" and it doesn't matter how you feel about them or not - what's written down is the rule. Gee whiz, I'm sure glad to know that I can just go through life only following the rules I pick and choose.

My personal favorite experience, however, at least for the moment, once a fellow student accused me of taking money out of his wallet while he was in gym class. "I CAN PROVE IT!" he said. This was his proof: "I had twenty dollars in my wallet before gym class. Look how much I have now. LOOK! See, nothing!? That PROVES THAT JOHN TOOK IT!" And of course, as far as everyone was concerned, I MUST HAVE taken it, because otherwise the hand-to-god proof he showed everyone would be wrong!!

School sucked, although a lot of it was my own fault because I let it happen. Such as the bullies I used to let just beat on me, because I knew that if god forbid I fought back, I'd not only get pounded by all his friends too, but then I'd get in trouble with the school itself and in even more trouble with my parents when I got home, which just didn't seem worth it. I wish I could back in time and do it again. I'd make sure the bully finished out the school year in a hospital bed, take the suspension with pride and if my parents gave me any shit, I'd just say "What are you gonna do about it? Hit me? Go ahead, then I get to go live in a better fucking home than this one, so fucking go ahead and knock my teeth out!"

Ah, the life of a sociopath. I'd live it well!

[Nyoibo]

There is another reason for the ban on mobile phones, it helps stop helicopter parents.