Are schools too strict.

[violetyoshi]

The reason there are "zero-tolerance" rules, is because they have to have a way to control the neanderthal students in their school. The people who try to follow rules, usually are the ones who suffer because of the rules put in place to control the stupid.

I kept being late for school due to circumstances out of my control, insomnia, a failure of my city to put a stoplight up near the intersection outside of my subdivision, which has been solved now. The cruel person there who would give out passes, every morning made sure to let me know that I wasn't getting a pass even despite my crying because I was there a few seconds late. My mom tried talking to her, explaining how every day I went to school I was crying because I would be humiliated in class or threatened with a punishment for something I could not help.

The school started at 6:30 am. This when they expect their students to come home at 4, do at least 2 hours of homework, and have some free time. I was put into circumstances that were wrong for me, because the school has to daycare the students who don't follow the rules, or intentionally try to break them.

This is why more parents are homeschooling, they want their children to have an education. Not be institutionalized in a daycare pretending to be a school. Schools are set up, to appeal to those students who don't think for themselves. Who want to babble all day with their friends, and learn nothing. This is why anyone with an IQ over 70, has a difficult time there.

I'm all for them restricting bathroom and drinking fountain privileges - I myself used to be one of those kids who would use those as excuses to get out of class just because I was bored. Of course there are special situations, but most of the time how often do you really have to go to the bathroom? Every 15 minutes or something?

I wonder were you absent during Sex Ed. You are the student who made us women, who needed to use the bathroom during our monthly visitor, have to humiliate ourselves in front of class telling everyone that we were having our "period" and needed to use the washroom. All because selfish brats like yourself, wanted to pretend you had to go to the washroom cause you were bored.

[Rageaholic]

How hard is it to follow a dress code? At my school, it was stuff like, no offensive t-shirts, shorts/skirts 3 inches above the knees, tank tops had to have a wide strap (I'm thinking it was the width of two fingers?). Baseball hats are banned for a few reasons - you can hide test answers under the brim, it conceals the students eyes, and, in inner cities, gang colors. Just don't wear a hat in school. Would you wear a hat at church? To your job, where it's not part of a uniform?

School is a structured environment, and structured environments have rules. Like - you go to the bathroom between classes, you have to do homework, you have to dress a certain way. What's wrong with that?

Well, if you have the right clothes, dress codes aren't too bad to follow, but getting detention for it? BULL SHIT

Same thing with not doing homework. It should affect their grade, not put them in detention. And sometimes, if you go to bathroom in between classes, you're late, and guess what, YOU'LL STILL GET DETENTION! So it's a no win situation.

I think it's too over structured. Most of the time, the only person affected by the students decision is them anyway. They shouldn't be punished for making their own decisions.

[Rageaholic]

I refuse to pee my pants for anyone. If I had to go, then I would go and heaven help the moron that stood in my way.
I think freedom of speech should be a right for youths too. Don't forget that some seniors are over 18 and shouldn't have any of their rights ignored.

Exactly, why should youths be seen as less then adults? Shouldn't they have the same rights as everyone else?

The reason there are "zero-tolerance" rules, is because they have to have a way to control the neanderthal students in their school. The people who try to follow rules, usually are the ones who suffer because of the rules put in place to control the stupid.

THIS.

I kept being late for school due to circumstances out of my control, insomnia, a failure of my city to put a stoplight up near the intersection outside of my subdivision, which has been solved now. The cruel person there who would give out passes, every morning made sure to let me know that I wasn't getting a pass even despite my crying because I was there a few seconds late. My mom tried talking to her, explaining how every day I went to school I was crying because I would be humiliated in class or threatened with a punishment for something I could not help.

The school started at 6:30 am. This when they expect their students to come home at 4, do at least 2 hours of homework, and have some free time. I was put into circumstances that were wrong for me, because the school has to daycare the students who don't follow the rules, or intentionally try to break them.

Yup, first of all, school starts way too early. Teens are the ones who need sleep the most, and they aren't getting it if they have to get up before sunrise each morning to make it to school. Also, a lot of the time, the kid gets in trouble for something the parents have to do, like signing homework (AKA: stupidest. rule. ever.). And the amount of homework is also insane. Either cut down on school time, or give less homework, but allow kids some free time.

This is why more parents are homeschooling, they want their children to have an education. Not be institutionalized in a daycare pretending to be a school. Schools are set up, to appeal to those students who don't think for themselves. Who want to babble all day with their friends, and learn nothing. This is why anyone with an IQ over 70, has a difficult time there.

Okay, I finally feel comfortable saying this, but yes, I was one of those who was taken out to be homeschooled. The environment at my middle school was too much for me to handle. I had like no time to get to class, I had a teacher who would harass me about which bathroom I used. She once yelled at me for stopping to get a drink of water (5 feet away from where we were). Then I'd come home and be stuck doing homework the rest of the day. I had NO free time when I got home, that I eventually broke down and cried.

I was also one of those LD kids (which caused a whole different discussion in the punishments in school thread), but I simply saw it as a different way of learning. You'd think the schools could allow me to learn things the way I learn them instead of expecting everyone to do things the same. Well, in some cases, yes, but in others no. Why should I "show my work" in math if I already know how to do the problems? Doesn't that show that I already know the material? Why should I have to right all my papers in cursive if no one can read my cursive? Because everyone else has to write in cursive? Well that's BS, why teach us two different writting styles if only one is going to matter? (though thank god for computers now. I don't know what I'd do without them).

The way I see it, everyone learns differently. If a student finds some other way of learning that helps him, than all the more power to them. They know more about themselves than any teacher or parent can ever know. Why should the schools expect everyone to be the same when they aren't? Personally, I've come to feel that schools are more like boot camps than educational institutions. Way too many rules, less open learning. It needs to change.

[AdminAssistant]

I heard about new rules being brought in - no exposed belly buttons, no short skirts (something like 3 inches above the knees, I dunno), shirts must not be translucent, neck lines weren't allowed to be below a certain point, and a few stupid rules for guys I can't remember.

We had those rules, too. My school even had the *gasp* audacity to ban midriff exposing prom dresses and cheerleading uniforms. The girls who wanted to slut up had to do it on the weekends. Seriously - jeans, t-shirts, polos, khakis...I never had a problem finding dress code appropriate clothes. And I lived in the middle of nowhere.

I refuse to pee my pants for anyone. If I had to go, then I would go and heaven help the moron that stood in my way.
I think freedom of speech should be a right for youths too. Don't forget that some seniors are over 18 and shouldn't have any of their rights ignored.

Of course, I think that if you need to go, you should be allowed. But the pass system makes sure that right is not being abused.

Well, if you have the right clothes, dress codes aren't too bad to follow, but getting detention for it? BULL SHIT

So, what should they get? There has to be some kind of punishment if a rule isn't being followed. The detention for homework thing is a kind of, "Well, if you don't have time to do homework at home we will PROVIDE time for you" kind of thing, I think.

Teens are the ones who need sleep the most, and they aren't getting it if they have to get up before sunrise each morning to make it to school. Also, a lot of the time, the kid gets in trouble for something the parents have to do, like signing homework (AKA: stupidest. rule. ever.)

[...]

Why should I "show my work" in math if I already know how to do the problems?

Yeah, heaven forbid teens actually have curfews and bedtimes like I did. On weeknights, I was usually in bed by 10 or 10:30, and got up at 5:55. The problem is that there's too much extra crap - clubs, associations, sports - that takes away any 'free time' they might have.

My folks didn't have to sign homework, but they did have to sign report cards. Parents have to be held accountable for their children.

Honestly, "showing your work" always drove me crazy, as did not being able to use a calculator, but then, I hated math. But I think I understand why we had to do that - there will be situations when you don't have a calculator, and it's not enough that you know how to solve a problem, you need to know why the problem is solved that way.

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[DrFaroohk]

I wonder were you absent during Sex Ed. You are the student who made us women, who needed to use the bathroom during our monthly visitor, have to humiliate ourselves in front of class telling everyone that we were having our "period" and needed to use the washroom. All because selfish brats like yourself, wanted to pretend you had to go to the washroom cause you were bored.

That almost made sense, except that I got over my washroom phase before women started having their periods. Plus, I'm married. I've been married twice now. I'm familiar with "period habits". You shouldn't have to go fix yourself once per class. Furthermore, you don't have to yell "I'M HAVING MY PERIOD!" You can just as easily mention it to the teacher quietly and privately, or give them a certain look that says "I NEED TO GO NOW" or you can just say fuck the teacher and go. No one's going to suspend you for going to change your tampon.

FInally, I'm not "the student" who caused any sort of problem. Whatever happened to "personal responsibility"? Making person A suffer the consequences of what person B did seems to go directly against that. Make person A suffer the consequences because of what person A did and leave it at that. Maybe it's more difficult, but I hardly think basing responsibility on convenience is the way to go.

[Nyoibo]

How hard is it to go to the toilet during breaks and use some self control and hold it during class, seriously, if you're needing to pee or poop every hour or less then you should probably go see a doctor. Dress codes are easy to follow you just have to *gasp* read them.

Oh BTW I have gone to school in both the US and Australia including private school with full uniform and public schools with no uniform and a dress code.

[Greenday]

That's well and fine for your school, which seems to have a relatively lax code, but at my old junior high, I heard about new rules being brought in - no exposed belly buttons, no short skirts (something like 3 inches above the knees, I dunno), shirts must not be translucent, neck lines weren't allowed to be below a certain point, and a few stupid rules for guys I can't remember.

So wait, not being allowed to dress like a slut or like a total slob is a strict dress code? This is news to me.

[DrFaroohk]

I think what people are getting at with the dress code is this: What does it have to do with anything? You go to school to learn that 2+2=4. How does it matter if I wear a suit and tie or a megadeth t-shirt? Does that make my educational experience different? Either way, I still learned that 2+2=4. It doesn't change the fact that 2+2=4 if I wear a co-ed naked t-shirt or a shirt with what might be a pot leaf on it. 2+2=4 and I learned that.

[Lace Neil Singer]

Why make such a horrendous fuss about dress codes? So you have to dress in a certain way for school; big deal. At most schools in England, you have to wear a uniform which is a lot worse. The second secondary I went to was nonuniform, but had a dress code that was fairly lax; ie, no slutty clothes and no showing underwear.

Also, the dress code/uniform is probably to prepare you for the world of work, where you have to adhere to a dress code or wear a uniform. After all, you can always wear your own clothes outside of school and work.

[AdminAssistant]

I think what people are getting at with the dress code is this: What does it have to do with anything?

Because a girl dressed in extremely revealing clothing or a guy wearing a t-shirt that says, "Marilyn Manson: GOD OF FUCK" is going to distract the other students.

Besides, what better time and place to learn that life has some fucking rules, okay? There are appropriate and inappropriate ways to dress. There are time constraints. Certain language is not appropriate. Teachers and principals are authority figures and are to be respected. I was so surprised when I went to college and didn't have to call my theatre professors "Mr. So-and-So" or "Mrs. So-and-So". (Even more shocked when I moved North and got dirty looks for saying "yes, ma'am" and "no, sir".)

[BroomJockey]

So wait, not being allowed to dress like a slut or like a total slob is a strict dress code? This is news to me.

No, the issue was, in my town, you couldn't find clothing that fit the dress code. You literally had to make a trip to a city an hour away. I thought I'd made that clear with my mentioning that we only had a Wal-Mart wanna-be that only carried what was "in fashion." AKA "stuff that didn't fit the dress code." But I guess I shouldn't have left extrapolation.

[AdminAssistant]

The closest malls/clothing stores were anywhere from 30 to 45 minutes away, depending upon where you lived in my school district. That's just part of living in a rural area, I'm afraid.

[Akasa]

You guys are missing a part of the zero tollerance. The no touching, no hugs, hand holding, etc. So if your friend is crying and needs some comfort you can't give them a hug to give them comfort w/o detention... or worse.

[DesignFox]

You guys are missing a part of the zero tollerance. The no touching, no hugs, hand holding, etc. So if your friend is crying and needs some comfort you can't give them a hug to give them comfort w/o detention... or worse.

See, now that's the shit I don't agree with.

A lot of the reason for these no touching policies has to do with the H1N1 hysteria going around. More people die of the regular flu. Get the fuck over it. But that's another rant...

Anywho. I don't see the big deal with dress codes. Don't like it? Go home and change. I've been to both private and public school. I never minded wearing a uniform when I had to, and I was more than happy to follow my public school's simple dress code of no hats, no revealing clothing and no curse words. That's not a big fucking deal. Some of you are really honestly telling me you can't go to the local store and get a pair of jeans and a t-shirt that doesn't have any expletives on it? Really? I apologize, but I'm calling bullshit on that.

Like it's been stated before, having a dress code at school is only preparing kids for the real world where *gasp* you have a dress code at work!

I do agree that some schools probably go over the top with a lot of stuff. The no-touching rule is an example. While I agree that kids shouldn't be making out and groping each other in the halls, I see no reason to give them a hard time about hugs, simple kisses on the cheek, high fives, etc. Give it a rest.

And as far as drugs and fighting goes- THAT'S the shit that needs to be taken seriously. Yes, if drugs or alcohol are involved, call the cops. Depending on the severity of the fight, might want to call cops, but most likely not necessary- kids are little assholes- they fight sometimes.

Being late for class? In my school, it was a "three strikes you're out" policy. Students were not given detention for occasionally being late to school. You had to be late 3 times within a certain period of time to be given detention. (I don't remember what it was because I was so rarely late to school) Same sort of punishment for un-excused absences (no note from parents, no doctor's note, etc.)

Most offenses you got a warning first. If the teacher constantly had to reprimand you for being late, you got punished for it. If you constantly asked to be excused to go to the bathroom, of course the teacher might start to say "no." (I honestly don't ever remember a student having that problem, though) If you didn't do your homework? You got poor grades. And yes, I think if you constantly complain that you are too busy with other things to do homework, you should have to stay after school. Call it detention or whatever. You didn't have time? Here's time to do the work.

It's not just about book learning. Kids need those boundaries established to help them prepare for the real world.

As an aside, I do also think that kids are given far too much homework sometimes. They really do need a chance to do the after school activities, go outside and play with friends, or just plain relax. Young children especially.

[guywithashovel]

It was your thread which made me want to start this. Having kids do work is borderline excessive, especially if the reason they were being punished was such little things like being late for class, dress codes violations, and not doing homework (that should only affect their grade like it does in college).

I'm curious, what kind of stuff do you think schools let go that needs to be stopped? I would agree that they go after the wrong stuff, but the rules at face are just too strict imo. I was one of those "good students" who never caused trouble, yet not even I could follow all the rules.

I would agree that there are some things that schools fuss over that really aren't important. When I said that I thought schools were sometimes too lenient, I was thinking of things like disrupting the class and pushing other students around. When I was in school, I frequently saw these types of things happen with the offending student often getting away with it, or at the very most getting a lunchtime detention. And the same students kept doing these kinds of stuff over and over again, which told me they weren't learning their lessons.

Several people have thought my idea that kids in detention should do janitorial work around the school is excessive. Personally, I don't think it is. The only real problem I can foresee with it is finding the right kind of teacher to supervise it---the kind who is really good at taking charge and making sure the kids do all that they're supposed to do. Maybe I'm not looking at this the right way, but personally, I think that if those arrogant, obnoxious kids who constantly disrupted the class and liked to push around their fellow classmates were made to spend a few hours after school scrubbing toilets or mopping floors as payment for their deeds, they might straighten up a bit.

Several people have also mentioned dress codes. Let's be honest, schools have to set SOME limitations here (though there is such a thing as being too strict). It isn't unreasonable to ask kids not to wear shorts//skirts/shirts that are too short or to not wear clothes that have offensive messages on them. Almost every employer I have had has had some sort of established set of rules regarding what we wore. Granted, my internship at the university housing association and my tutoring job were both pretty lenient. Heck, the events manager and director of education at the univeristy housing association often came to work in sweatshirts and jeans (T-shirts and shorts in the summer). But I'm sure if either of them had ever shown up in Daisy Duke shorts or shirts that said "Fuck the Word" on them, someone would have been giving them a talking to.

Well, those are my thoughts. I'll be happy to clarify or elaborate if anyone wants me to.