wah-I didn't do my homework and bought a defective house-bail me out government!!!!

[BlaqueKatt]

story here

People bought houses made with faulty materials(drywall), and now expect their insurance companies to fix it, when it's basically a "warranty issue". Insurance companies deny the claim and then cancel the policy as the building does not meet code due to defective materials. Homeowners want the government to help them.

Interestingly-some of them want to sue the country where the product was made(why meets code over there?), but not one has thought to go after the builders for using substandard materials, or just accepted that "hey I screwed up by not making sure the materials used were safe before I bought it".

"The homeowners have little recourse since neither the Chinese manufacturers nor the Chinese government are likely to respond to any lawsuits or reimburse them for the defective drywall."

"John Kuczwanski, a spokesman for Citizens Property Insurance Corp., said these claims are denied because the drywall is considered a builder defect, which is not covered under the policy. It also considers the drywall a pre-existing condition that could lead to future damage, which is why the company won't renew the policy unless the problem is fixed."

"Robert Hartwig, president of the Insurance Information Institute, agreed that homeowners policies were never meant to cover "faulty, inadequate or defective" workmanship, construction or materials."

"If someone were to have bought a new car and there was a defective part, would that person go to their auto insurance to get that fixed or would they go back to the manufacturer?" Kuczwanski said. "We provide insurance, not warranty service."

Why do people cut corners when making large expensive purchases, but spare no expense when buying trivial crap?

example-home buyers can request from the builder at an additional charge a list of materials used, or hire an inspector for anywhere between $400-$1000 depending on the level of inspection done. a mechanic charges between $50-$100 to inspect a vehicle prior to purchase.

Most people don't do either

however; when it comes to buying a computer, or mp3 player, television set, DVD player etc.(all "disposable" items for the most part), they read reviews, want the most features, etc.

Why? The more money someone stands to lose/gain, there should be less trust involved, not more, but it seems to me this is pretty much not the case.

[Lady_Foxfire]

Maybe because it costs $400-1000 to hire someone to inspect the house? That's a lot of money, especially considering how much of a strain the cost of the house itself puts on people's budgets. If there was something wrong with the house that would have been immediately obvious to any lay person who inspected the house then I would be less sympathetic, but most people don't know enough about drywall to tell when someone's been cutting corners.

I really don't blame them from asking the government to help them after the insurance company basically hung them out to dry. This situation wasn't their fault, and whoever installed the drywall should have to answer for their shoddy work.

[Boozy]

Why do people cut corners when making large expensive purchases, but spare no expense when buying trivial crap?

Because if they didn't cut corners when making an expensive purchase, they wouldn't be able to make the purchase at all. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but the logic makes sense.

The housing market was so absurdly inflated before spring of 2008 that the average family would not have been able to afford a new home built with quality materials. Homes were getting built so quickly, and land was so overvalued, that materials were cheap and craftsmanship poor.

I don't know whose fault it is, but I will say this: My husband and I are under immense pressure from both sides of our family to buy a home. It's a social expectation in our society, and non-homeowners are considered either poor, or living on the fringe.

In our neck of the woods, the housing bubble never popped. 1200 square-foot semi-detached homes are going for about $300,000-$450,000. We have no interest in buying, because we know these homes aren't worth that much in a saner world. We have the backbone to wait until that saner world comes around, but many people don't. Middle-class families in our city who choose to buy a home are faced with a choice between getting mortgages they can't afford or buying poor quality homes.

[BlaqueKatt]

Maybe because it costs $400-1000 to hire someone to inspect the house? That's a lot of money, especially considering how much of a strain the cost of the house itself puts on people's budgets. <snip>but most people don't know enough about drywall to tell when someone's been cutting corners..

$400-$1000 compared to having to pay $10,000-$20,000 for a new roof
$400-$1000 compared to having to pay $10,000-$15,000 for new wiring
$400-$1000 compared to having to pay $10,000-$20,000 for new plumbing

do you know how to tell if construction/wiring/plumbing is up to code? Does the average homebuyer? Can you tell the difference between lead solder on pipes and non-lead?

all the more reason to hire an inspector-usually if the inspector finds something you can ask to have it repaired before purchase, or get the price bought down enough to afford the fix yourself.

One of my co-workers just bought a house, paid for the inspector($800) and got $20,000 off the cost of the house as after inspection, the roof looked fine to the average person-but will need to be replaced before next winter. If she hadn't paid for an inspector she'd still be stuck paying for a new roof, and a higher price for the house.

My mom's former in-laws have a house that the wiring in the kitchen is-I kid you not-extension cords(inside the walls)-the house looks fine but anyone that buys it is in for a nightmare if they don't get it inspected, or apply for building permits to remodel it-as it's far from being up to code-and any new owner will have to pay to bring it up to code, if it wasn't inspected prior to purchase.

[Nyoibo]

Makes me glad that all the work I've done recently was Gyprock brand and I did it my self.

[Slytovhand]

I totally agree with the OP.... $350K house...damn right you spend a few hundred to get a professional to inspect it first!!! So, yes, it is the buyers own damn fault, and no government should be bailing them out for it! Sure, it sucks to be them... but tough!!! (if they haven't thE brains to think of that, not sure they've got the brains to work out if they can actually afford the thing in the first place!)

China's unofficial response to the claim - a hysterical laugh....

Sure, go for the builders then... if they can afford it...



Nyoibo.. when did you change your sig??? (I'd like to own the last book...)

[linguist]

you make the assumption (with no proof) that no inspector was hired, but according to the article these houses were built between 2004 and 2008, and the drywall has been found to be defective since then. if there was no known issue with it at the time of the inspection, the inspector would have no reason to fail it. as for turning to the government, in at least some of these cases (those with citizens insurance company), i find that a valid response, as citizens is a government-backed insurer.

also, nowhere in the article does it state that anyone is looking to sue the chinese government or manufacturer, just that they'd have little recourse if they did.

[Nyoibo]

Nyoibo.. when did you change your sig???

Last night.

[BlaqueKatt]

you make the assumption (with no proof) that no inspector was hired, but according to the article these houses were built between 2004 and 2008

the main couple-the Ivorys-it was a recent purchase-the other unnamed couple is committing insurance fraud on citizens insurance(not disclosing the drywall issue-yes that is fraud)

Even if a homeowner does not file a claim over the drywall and remains covered, they could later be denied a claim for a fire or another calamity if insurance investigators determine the home contained undisclosed Chinese drywall.

"If you think that by not telling your insurance company about the drywall that you're protected, you're sadly mistaken," Durkee said.

as for turning to the government, in at least some of these cases (those with citizens insurance company), i find that a valid response, as citizens is a government-backed insurer.

It's backed by the State of Florida-not federal-for people that can't afford standard insurance(how they can afford a house but not the insurance for it-who knows? And it's the Federal government that's looking into bailing them out. So my tax dollars will be paying for this.

and again

"Robert Hartwig, president of the Insurance Information Institute, agreed that homeowners policies were never meant to cover "faulty, inadequate or defective" workmanship, construction or materials."

"If someone were to have bought a new car and there was a defective part, would that person go to their auto insurance to get that fixed or would they go back to the manufacturer?" Kuczwanski said. "We provide insurance, not warranty service."

[protege]

Thought I'd throw this out there... Some states (like Pennsylvania) do not have licensing requirements for home inspectors. That is, any idiot with a pickup and some tools can claim to be a "home inspector." With that said, trying to go after an incompetent inspector would be difficult here. Even so, there are several firms locally, that actually do know what they're doing, and *will* disclose their findings in their reports.

How do I know this? Well, before I bought my house in 2006, I had it thoroughly inspected before closing on the deal. Granted, it wasn't cheap (about $400), but I felt it was well worth it. Look at it this way, would you rather spend $400 and know what's wrong (and get the seller to fix it)? Or would you rather go into the deal blind, and get nailed with a several thousand bill later?

In my case, the inspection actually saved money--I got a new furnace out of the deal. It had to be replaced, because of a cracked heat exchanger. Otherwise, dangerous carbon monoxide would have gotten into the house But, that wasn't the only problem--several electrical outlets were wired incorrectly as well.

What I'm trying to say is, that I have very little tolerance for people who refuse to do their homework...and then get upset when things turn to shit. Sorry, but I was brought up to believe that if I'm spending several thousand on a car or house...it better damn well do what it's supposed to.

[Tanasi]

My middle daughter and her intended were about to close on a condo without having an inspection. I paid a friend that is a contractor to inspect the condo and he found so many things wrong that he advised them to back out of the deal. Used to be lenders required a land survey and inspection before signing off on the loan, now if the last survey is within the last 10 years then it's OK, home inspection nahhh not needed. Anyone that buys anykind of dwelling without an inspection is a fool, if you can't afford the inspection then you can't afford the dwelling. Lots of folks in the building trades are drunks so keep that in mind when looking for a home.

On a slightly different note: If you have the room and storage space now is the time to buy building materials. The wife and I are in the process of designing a get away home for our lake/river lot and we already got most of the materials bought and paid for stored in a warehouse that we own.

[Stormraven]

How odd. Out here in CA, when we got our condo, the inspector was part of the Mortgage process. The bank would not provide a mortgage without an inspection. Fees were added to Closing, AIR.

[Mytical]

Same here, and they required 2 inspections. One paid for by the original owner, and one paid by me (Through the mortgage and added on). They averaged out the value of the house from the two, and that was all they would loan us (well 125% of that). We talked the original owner down to the lower estimate (and they paid closing costs, etc). We got a great deal, and a good house. They got rid of a property they could no longer afford to maintain. Win/Win.

[Imprl59]

I have to agree with others on the inspection thing. Inspection is mandatory and probably more so on a new home than an old home. If you can't afford the inspection then you really should rethink buying the home.

Here's the problem though.. it isn't so easy to know if you have Chinese drywall and if you do is it the good or bad stuff. The bad stuff was used for several years before anyone even knew there was an issue (2002 to 2007 are the watch out for years). Typically the ceiling drywall is thicer (5/8") than the wall drywall (1/2") which adds more complexity to the issue. You might have good ceiling but bad wall or the other way around as the differenct sizes could come from different manufacturers. Also much of the bad drywall didn't start outgassing for years after the home was built.

Here's an excerpt from http://www.ableinspector.com/chinese...ll-inspections it's an interesting issue and they do a good job describing it on that page if you want to read the whole thing

"To sum this all up, there is unfortunately no practical way to positively determine if a home has, or does not have Chinese drywall short of cutting dozens of holes in the walls and testing the samples. As you can imagine, this is extremely expensive and obviously leaves numerous holes in your walls. As inspectors, all we can do is look at the back side of any exposed drywall for suspicious markings, and look for signs and symptoms a home may have Chinese drywall. The Chinese drywall signs and symptoms include, but are not limited to blackened exposed copper or other metals such as silver. Blackened AC coil, or badly tarnished electrical connections. Presence of a sulfur odor should make you very suspicious. This odor may resemble “rotten eggs” or a burnt match.

While the methods used are generally reliable, there is one and only one way to guarantee a home built between 2002 and 2007 is Chinese drywall free. That method unfortunately is to replace all of the drywall in the home, with the possible exception of the ceiling drywall since it is often visible from the back side and may be identifiable.

As a footnote, I feel it is important to add that there are some reports that indicate some USA made drywall may also be contaminated. Their manufacturers deny any possibility of this, but one cannot rule out that some contaminated gypsum may have been imported for manufacture of drywall by an American company. I find this believable as much of our cement is now imported from China."

[Imprl59]

It's backed by the State of Florida-not federal-for people that can't afford standard insurance(how they can afford a house but not the insurance for it-who knows? And it's the Federal government that's looking into bailing them out. So my tax dollars will be paying for this.

and again

Citizens isn't for people who can't afford standard insurance, it's for people who can't get standard insurance and that is a bunch of us in Florida. Citizens is a more expensive option than standard insurance.

Short version:
Citizens was created in Florida in 2002 for people who couldn't get standard insurance. In 2004 we had a very active hurricane year in Florida. As a result there was a bunch of damage and the insurance companies lost buckets of money. The insurance rates skyrocketed. Florida government came along and capped the insurance rates to save us from the insurance companies. The insurance companies pulled out of Florida leaving tons of us with no option at all for insurance.

I live about a mile off the gulf in Florida and pay an almost 2K surcharge on top of my standard homeowners for "wind coverage" and I'm one of the lucky ones... My insurance company hasn't cancelled us but they are not writing any new policies in the state and won't make any material changes to existing policies.

Luckily for us the storm seasons have been mild for the last few years and new insurance companies are movng in to the state so some people who had no options have options again.

Steve B.