Doctors legally forced to allow girl to commit Suicide.

[Greenday]

I don't like suicide. I don't think not being able to get pregnant is even close enough to being a good reason to do so. But it's not always a selfish act. And I just find it that most people who don't get it or find it completely selfish just haven't been there. I've thought about suicide many times and my heart goes out to people who commit suicide or try to. It is an indescribable pain that causes this feeling. Words do not even come close to how you feel when you feel like suicide is a pretty good idea. Dieing sucks enough as it is and can be mad scary. Dieing alone would be a lot scarier and I can easily see why she wanted company while she died.

I feel it's horrible that she had to put other people in a position where they were forced to watch her die like that. I don't agree with people who do stuff like that. But there just is no right or wrong in this situation. This is clearly a gray situation.

That being said, if the doctors were to go against her wishes, supposing she was sane when she made them, I'd have a pretty low opinion of them for multiple reasons. One such reasons is that there are people who actually want help and need it. Don't ignore them. Plus, do you know how much emotional damage you will add to the person who tried to kill themself? I mean, they already had enough shit in their life to absolutely know it was worth it trying to commit suicide. Adding to all that shit that they can't even correctly kill theirself will only make things a lot worse. One could even call that torture.

[RecoveringKinkoid]

I'm thinking if you really want to end it all, with no chance of being recusitated, then don't go to the freaking emergency room. Isn't that kind of a no brainer?

I mean, really.

[Boozy]

But seriously...to kill yourself because you can't get pregnant? IMO that is a symptom of a more serious underlying depression that very well could have been treated with medication and therapy.

Had she been suffering from something like motor neurone disease, there would at least have been a reason, but not being able to have a child? Please.

I couldn't have a child, either.

Now I'm 46 and guess what I have.

This fucking sucks. FUCKING sucks.

It doesn't make sense to focus on her "reason" for commiting suicide.

She did not kill herself because she couldn't have a child. Millions of women want children and can't have them, and they don't kill themselves. Rather, her unfulfilled desire to have a child likely triggered a major depressive (and possibly psychotic) epidsode. Mental illness killed her.

[Lace Neil Singer]

And I just find it that most people who don't get it or find it completely selfish just haven't been there.

Sorry to bust your bubble, but I've been there. I've been down in the depths, suffering so badly I wished I could just die in my sleep and not wake up the next day. However, I knew my parents would be devastated if I killed myself, so I chose to rise above it. Even when I was suffering from clinical depression and got so far as to write a suicide note, I still pulled myself back from it. It is possible; just that a lot of people are too selfish to do it.

[RecoveringKinkoid]

You're right, Boozy, the reason really isnn't relevant.

I'm thinking of my own situation, which was before I married I suffered a brief (about two years) bout of depression. (It had nothing to do with children or whatever. )

Obviously, I didn't kill myself, but I am not going to lie and say I didn't think about it, at least in passing. Actually, at least long enough that one night I called a friend to come stay the night with me. I didn't tell her why.

I think many if not most people at some point go through their own dark night of the soul. Had I solved that very temporary problem with such a horribly permanent solution, look at what I would have missed out.

And my other point was that it's quite possibly she may have been able to have kids in the future (we don't know any details, so I have to say we don't know that her situation was permanent.). So to get that despondent over something like that that you pull a stunt like this....yeah. Not in her right mind and thus unable to make that kind of decision with a sound mind.

[Flyndaran]

I can say right now that if no medication effected my anxiety, I would have killed myself long ago, and fuck anyone that dares call me cowardly.
No one has the right to tell me what makes my life worth living.
Dying in a hospital give loved ones a chance to say goodbye that a simple death in the night doesn't.

[Lace Neil Singer]

If you care that much about them, you wouldn't put them thru such pain by killing yourself. And why get a load of doctors and nurses involved? It's selfish and cowardly; but then, I prefered to find the strength to face my problems and attempt to solve them, rather than just giving up and throwing the towel in.

[Pedersen]

And why get a load of doctors and nurses involved?

Actually, it is the only way to be 100% certain that you will not be resuscitated. After all, people believe that an attempted suicide is no more than a cry for help (usually, it is, but for some non-zero percentage of the people who attempt, it is not). So, if the person is found unconscious but not yet dead, they will be rushed to the hospital, with attempts being made on the way to resuscitate that person.

However, if you show up at the ER already having done the necessary steps to ensure your own death, but haven't actually stopped moving yet, you can easily hand over a living will and/or a DNR order. You will die at that point. If that is what you truly wish, then going to the ER while still conscious might well be the only way to ensure it happens.

It's selfish and cowardly; but then, I prefered to find the strength to face my problems and attempt to solve them, rather than just giving up and throwing the towel in.

Selfish? Yes, it is. Cowardly? Hardly. When it comes to death, only one thing about it is absolutely, 100% known for certain here on earth: Your body stops functioning. Depending on which belief system you subscribe to, your essence (soul, whatever) may now begin some sort of journey through the afterlife, or you are now and forever gone, as the body is all you are.

With that level of uncertainty, it is far from a cowardly act. In fact, if you happen to believe in Christian dogma, you are going to burn in hell for eternity. Yet, even with that hanging over your head, that is preferable to living here? I'd say that's mighty damned brave.

[Lace Neil Singer]

You have your opinion and I have mine; we'll leave it at that.

For the record, I believe that we rot in the ground or alternatively, are dust in the wind. That's all the more reason to live, rather than kill yourself, cuz you only get one chance at life.

[Mr Slugger]

When I was a kid I had my moments, and then when I was 17 that changed. My best friend hung himself in his bedroom closet because his girlfriend dumped him. His mother found him hanging in the closet. I saw the collar around his neck when I went to the funeral to cover the marks. His mother was totally devastated, and to this day 18 years later she can't function right in society. Everything reminds her of her son she lost. She can't go to weddings, although she did stop by to see me at mine, but only for a few minutes. She can't deal with people having babies, etc. She hasn't been able to work, she's been to the mental hospital numerous times.

And the night that I saw him at his wake was the day I promised myself that I would never take it that far. Not because of what he did to himself, but because of what he did to others. Because many people saw the warning signs and just passed them off. And then he was dead and those people were left with the guilt that they could have helped him, if they had just listened.

And then there's the poor train conductor that quit his job because a kid walked out in front of a train, and he couldn't deal with the fact that he splattered this kid all over the tracks.

I don't think anyone wants to get involved in a selfish act like that, and they shouldn't.

[Lace Neil Singer]

Exactly my point. If you don't want to be stopped, then like I said, lock yourself in your house and quietly slit your wrists. Then no-one else is involved and has to live with the guilt at being forced to help you die.

Tho your loved ones will still suffer and carry a burden of guilt and misery, but why should you care? Your feelings matter over all! -.-

[gremcint]

Your feelings matter over all! -.-

Yes sometimes they do, we tell people that every day. Whether it's vacation, leaving someone, divorce, talking about a serious issue or any number of things we tell people to consider what they want but as soon they decide they want out entirely you call it selfish. We tell people to leave abusive partners but what about when life treats you like shit?


Also quite frankly not everyone has family and friends.

[Lace Neil Singer]

I have my views; and I consider it cowardly and selfish. You have yours, and you don't. Let's just leave it at that, alright?

I already stated that I knew I'd be bashed for my opinion. And I still state that if you want to take that way out, then please don't involve anyone else; don't involve doctors, train drivers etc; just stick your head in the oven and do it alone.

[the_std]

Let's just leave it at that, alright?

Except that this is a debate forum, and stating your opinion on a debate forum leaves it up for debate.

[BroomJockey]

Let's just leave it at that, alright?

I already stated that I knew I'd be bashed for my opinion.

further to the_std's excellent point, debating is not bashing, you're not in the position of asking other people to drop topics (mods are! , but really only if we feel it's off-topic for the thread, or actually getting to bashing). If you feel compelled to no longer defend your point, then refraining from visiting the specific thread would be your best course of action. Several times, for various reasons, ranging from "I feel I've explained it as well as I can, yet do not seem to be understood," to "If I read any more of this I'm gonna go nuclear," I've stepped away from threads. It's perfectly valid. Others can continue to discuss their views on whether suicide is cowardly, and why, and you can have your leaving it alone by... well, leaving it alone yourself.

this advice, though addressed to Lace, applies to everyone. Please remember it in future.