Doctors legally forced to allow girl to commit Suicide.

[Mr Slugger]

Also quite frankly not everyone has family and friends.

But again why drag others into your problems? Drink mail a letter to the police saying by the time you get this letter I'll be dead you can find my body here, please break in you have my permission. And then do the dead.

Like I said in my first post I think that for the doctor's this was a case of this has never happened before. The trial, if that's what it was, was probably moreso was to make the doctor's feel better because their job is to save people, and here this person comes in dying and tells you all not to save them. Now if I was a doctor I know this would bug the crap out of me, and in all honesty I would probably say let this lady sue me I'm gonna save hr life anyway. Because....

What would have happened if the trail said they were at fault and they should have saved her. What would have happened? you'd probably have some doctors lose their jobs. Again over someone's selfish act.

And honestly I'm not saying that a person doesn't have the right to kill themselves. Just do it right. Don't get others involved in what you want to do. I mean cops see dead bodies all the time, so in reality if you kill yourself your just another dead body to them. Of course providing you didn't splatter your brains all over the bedroom wall or something, but I'm sure they've seen that too. But at least if your dead you're not tieing their hands on what to do. There's no should we save them or should we not, what are we going to do?

[Mr Slugger]

Except that this is a debate forum, and stating your opinion on a debate forum leaves it up for debate.

Plus I got your back on this one

[the_std]

I personally don't believe suicide, even when you have to include other people in the act, is cowardly. Every action has a reaction, every decision has a consequence. If you really want to die, if you make that choice, I actually think it's kind of brave. I've been to that dark place and wanted to try it, oh boy did I ever, but I was too scared. It's frightening, doing something that no one knows what happens afterwards. Heaven, hell, purgatory, limbo, or even complete and utter cessation of existence, they're all scary prospects.

If you really want to die, enough to go against most of our base instincts of self-preservation, then what other people think shouldn't matter. If that's the decision you've made, then you're in a place where the love other people have for you isn't even touching you. Yes, it will hurt them, but it's either hurt them, or continue to exist in a state that makes you want to kill yourself. And not the fleeting thoughts, either, but actually want to kill yourself. Sometimes, it isn't about other people, because they still get to make their own choices after you're gone. Yeah, it sucks. Sometimes, it's about you and your control over your life, and the power to end it if you so choose. Yes, your poor parents, your poor friends, those poor doctors and train conductors. It sucks that this happens to them, and I know we all wish it didn't have to. But, when you're in that place, no matter what reason you have to be there, they don't really matter. And that's it.

[Lace Neil Singer]

But again why drag others into your problems? Drink mail a letter to the police saying by the time you get this letter I'll be dead you can find my body here, please break in you have my permission. And then do the dead.

Like I said in my first post I think that for the doctor's this was a case of this has never happened before. The trial, if that's what it was, was probably moreso was to make the doctor's feel better because their job is to save people, and here this person comes in dying and tells you all not to save them. Now if I was a doctor I know this would bug the crap out of me, and in all honesty I would probably say let this lady sue me I'm gonna save hr life anyway. Because....

What would have happened if the trail said they were at fault and they should have saved her. What would have happened? you'd probably have some doctors lose their jobs. Again over someone's selfish act.

And honestly I'm not saying that a person doesn't have the right to kill themselves. Just do it right. Don't get others involved in what you want to do. I mean cops see dead bodies all the time, so in reality if you kill yourself your just another dead body to them. Of course providing you didn't splatter your brains all over the bedroom wall or something, but I'm sure they've seen that too. But at least if your dead you're not tieing their hands on what to do. There's no should we save them or should we not, what are we going to do?

This, pretty much, is what I was trying to say. Post that letter, lock the doors and slit your wrists. You're off to a happier place, and no-one else has been dragged in. If you really don't want to be saved, you don't call an ambulance and force doctors to make a choice like that.

[DesignFox]

<snip> But, when you're in that place, no matter what reason you have to be there, they don't really matter. And that's it.

See, this is my problem with suicide. This is why I find it extremely selfish. "No one else matters but ME and MY feelings."

When I was a teenager, I went through that phase, too. Especially around the time my mother died. Ya know what? My mom didn't fight cancer for as long as she did and suffer and try to survive just so her daughter could go out and throw her life away. What would my poor father have done? He already lost a beloved wife and was left alone with a teen and a two year old. I thought about all those things and it turned me around in very short order. I would not change my life for anything. Going through the tough times, and there were a great many, has made me the person I am today...and there are plenty of wonderful people who entered my life as a result of my mother's passing. I love one of them as dearly as I love her.

No pain is so great that it's worth destroying the lives of the people around you. And if the pain is that great, then at least accept the fact that you *are* being selfish by taking yourself out, leave a note to apologize to the people you hurt, and don't force medical personnel to make a definitely life-altering, if not, life destroying decision (being sued by surviving family for not saving the life, loss of job, etc).

I think people have the right to kill themselves if they really want to. But it doesn't change the fact that I think it is highly selfish.

[Boozy]

I think people have the right to kill themselves if they really want to. But it doesn't change the fact that I think it is highly selfish.

What seems selfish to someone who is mentally sound seems very different to one who is not.

The suicidal will often think things like, "My family would be better off without me" and "No one will even notice that I'm gone". These thoughts might be perfectly ludicrous to someone of sound mind, but to a mentally ill person they are the gospel truth.

Sometimes suicide is selfish, but to say that it is always a selfish act shows a lack of understanding about what mental illness can do to someone's mind. Even conditions that do not usually present with psychosis will often worsen without treatment. Sufferers of clinical depression are usually thinking clearly enough to understand what suicide would do to those around them, and they'll hang in despite their immense pain. However, undiagnosed clinical depression can spiral into psychosis over time. If someone commits suicide during such a state, they can't be considered responsible.

[Flyndaran]

If you care that much about them, you wouldn't put them thru such pain by killing yourself. And why get a load of doctors and nurses involved? It's selfish and cowardly; but then, I prefered to find the strength to face my problems and attempt to solve them, rather than just giving up and throwing the towel in.

You dare imply that those attempting suicide haven't tried long and hard over many years to fix problems that just can't be fixed?
That's very flippant of you.

You have your opinion and I have mine; we'll leave it at that.

For the record, I believe that we rot in the ground or alternatively, are dust in the wind. That's all the more reason to live, rather than kill yourself, cuz you only get one chance at life.

I'm an athiest that does not believe in an afterlife of any kind. You have no idea how much depression and crippling anxiety hurt. You have no right to belittle others' pain like that.

Exactly my point. If you don't want to be stopped, then like I said, lock yourself in your house and quietly slit your wrists. Then no-one else is involved and has to live with the guilt at being forced to help you die.

Tho your loved ones will still suffer and carry a burden of guilt and misery, but why should you care? Your feelings matter over all! -.-

Boo hoo. We all must live for the collective... oh wait, we're humans with levels of pain you cannot imagine. We all have limits. To suggest otherwise is insulting and downright ridiculous.

I have my views; and I consider it cowardly and selfish. You have yours, and you don't. Let's just leave it at that, alright?

I already stated that I knew I'd be bashed for my opinion. And I still state that if you want to take that way out, then please don't involve anyone else; don't involve doctors, train drivers etc; just stick your head in the oven and do it alone.

If I ever chose to go, I would do it like that. Only because I don't trust doctors to actually do what I tell them.
I would not be depressed, so no incorrect views of reality would propell me. Anxiety beyond what you normal people can imagine would have forced me to die. I may use the knife, gun, etc., but it would have been my anxiety that really led to my death.
I once lost 13 pounds, not water, in 9 days from sheer anxiety alone. You have no idea how much that hurt. If that was my normal state of existance, it wouldn't be for long. I can tell you that for sure.

What seems selfish to someone who is mentally sound seems very different to one who is not.

The suicidal will often think things like, "My family would be better off without me" and "No one will even notice that I'm gone". These thoughts might be perfectly ludicrous to someone of sound mind, but to a mentally ill person they are the gospel truth.

Sometimes suicide is selfish, but to say that it is always a selfish act shows a lack of understanding about what mental illness can do to someone's mind. Even conditions that do not usually present with psychosis will often worsen without treatment. Sufferers of clinical depression are usually thinking clearly enough to understand what suicide would do to those around them, and they'll hang in despite their immense pain. However, undiagnosed clinical depression can spiral into psychosis over time. If someone commits suicide during such a state, they can't be considered responsible.

Those insane at the time of suicide of course can't be blamed.
Those sane, deserve the benefit of the doubt that their pain was simply too great for them.

[jackfaire]

Maybe instead of trying to get the law changed they should instead look at a culture that says, "Unless you fulfill certain milestones in your life then your life is wasted"

[Lace Neil Singer]

I love the way that you're a) assuming that this thread is all about you and b) making out that just cuz you suffer from anxiety, that no-one else can ever imagine your pain.

I'll take your anxiety and raise you an eating disorder, clinical depression and acute self loathing. As I said in previous posts, which you obviously didn't bother to read, yes, I have been there. However, I had the guts to stand and fight, rather than lie down and die. That doesn't make me better than you, or anyone, who wishes to suicide; just different. If you're going to take this personally, maybe you shouldn't reply to the thread for a few days, like I just did.

I spent a lot of my teenage years binging and starving myself. I once binged on fast food til I felt sick, then punished myself by slashing my arm so badly that I had to be taken to Casualty for stitches. During my bout of depression, I stayed in bed, without eating or even showering, for days. I wanted more than anything to go to sleep and not wake up. Believe me, I have been there; and I find it deeply insulting that you're assuming that no-one who disagrees with your view has suffered at all. Even now, I still have to work at not self harming, or binging when I'm upset or angry. It's a constant battle; however, I believe that life is worth it, and I would have to be suffering from something really bad, like the aforementioned motor neurone disease, to want to give up on it.

[Flyndaran]

I love the way that you're a) assuming that this thread is all about you and b) making out that just cuz you suffer from anxiety, that no-one else can ever imagine your pain.

I'll take your anxiety and raise you an eating disorder, clinical depression and acute self loathing. As I said in previous posts, which you obviously didn't bother to read, yes, I have been there. However, I had the guts to stand and fight, rather than lie down and die. That doesn't make me better than you, or anyone, who wishes to suicide; just different. If you're going to take this personally, maybe you shouldn't reply to the thread for a few days, like I just did.
...
It's a constant battle; however, I believe that life is worth it, and I would have to be suffering from something really bad, like the aforementioned motor neurone disease, to want to give up on it.

I still say that everyone has a limit to the amount of suffering they can suffer. It is not your right to decide for me where that line is.
Also, I never mentioned it, but I was a minor cutter as a teen with severe depression as well.
At least you acknowledge that may be right for you may not be for others.
Even if you keep referring to the gut wrenching choice to commit suicide as giving up. For many it is a courageous choice to brave the unknown rather than sit in abject misery until death comes anyway.

[Lace Neil Singer]

I respect your opinion. I'm glad you respect mine; I see suicide as giving up, especially if said misery is caused by others. If it is, then suicide is letting them win, and I guess I'm just too bloody minded to let that happen if I can help it.

[Flyndaran]

I respect your opinion. I'm glad you respect mine; I see suicide as giving up, especially if said misery is caused by others. If it is, then suicide is letting them win, and I guess I'm just too bloody minded to let that happen if I can help it.

Absolutely. I'm sure the vast majority of suicides are needless in that not all options have been exhausted and there was still a bit of hope left.
I just don't believe that there aren't others that have exhausted all options and really do deserve an end to their suffering. Everyone has a limit; ignoring that is irrational, in my opinion.