What is poverty?

[Seshat]

This is an offshoot from the 'Get a Job' thread.

I'm curious how different people define poverty: what does it mean to you?

Myself, I look at it this way:

There's a certain minimum cost/person for a healthy life. This cost includes:
* living space that doesn't leak, isn't vermin ridden, and is otherwise sound. Not necessarily pretty, but sound.
* sufficient nutritious food. Fruits and veggies and grains and protein. If bought as the raw materials for nutritious meals, access to a kitchen & cooking tools is also required.
* adequate clothing for the tasks they do, and access to cleaning facilities and supplies. (EG: safety boots and goggles and work clothes is non-negotiable for factory workers or gardeners.)
* medical treatment adequate to their needs. This is the most variable cost and hardest to calculate, but is an essential one.
* transport to and from work, medical care, the marketplace, and other necessary places.
* school supplies for the children. Preferably also access to a library for children and adults alike.
* miscellaneous other things along these lines, but I'm sure everyone gets the idea.


If a person doesn't have enough money to cover these needs, they're too poor, IMO. Ditto for a family which doesn't have enough money to cover these needs for the whole family.

If they have just enough to cover these needs, but not anything left over, I consider them too poor to pull themselves out of poverty without a handout. I know it doesn't take much extra to do something like make handicrafts and sell them at a market; but if they don't have that little bit extra, they still can't do it without sacrificing something essential.

If they have just a little bit more than this, they're okay. They can (perhaps slowly and gradually) use that tiny bit extra to invest in some scheme that will become a bit more extra, then reinvest that and get even more, and so on until they're at the financial place they want to be. Or if they prefer, they can spend it on beer and cigs. It's up to them.

I would like to see everyone in the world have enough more than this to be comfortably off (to be able to make their living space a bit pretty, to have some 'sunday best' clothing, to have a varied diet not just a nutritous one).

But if their income doesn't cover everything on my list, or just barely covers it, then yes I do consider them to be too poor to haul themselves out of poverty on their own. I'm aware that some exceptional people do achieve that, but I don't expect the average person to be exceptional.

[rahmota]

Yeah I would say thats a reasonably fair definition of poverty.

Not being able to support yourself in a basic level of subsistence or survival without great hardship or sacrifice.

Not having the latest and greatest gadgets and toys but at least food, clothes, shelter and all the basic necesseties of life.

[Seshat]

I'll add that if a person makes themselves well off or even rich through judicious use of their 'little bit extra', I'm perfectly happy about that. As long as they don't cheat to get it, I have no qualms about them using the money they earn any way they want.

Of course, defining 'cheat' is the problem. :/

[Nightwolf]

I agree with the OP definition. That would be closer to poverty vs. the wage debate that Raps had pointed out in another post. I know thats how a lot of people look at it, but with the way things differ in areas financially, it's impossible to go by a financial model.

Going by a reasonable model would be best. What they "reasonably NEED" in order to meet the above demands. Not what they "WANT".

The whole food thing is a bit tough imo. It costs so damn much to try and eat healthy. It sucks. Just trying to eat healthier foods made it tough even on my last job, not to mention now it's damn near impossible on a part time salary. You try to eat less fast food, more chicken, fish, and fresh fruits/veggies and holy crap, you're paying out the nose.

[Seshat]

The whole food thing is a bit tough imo. It costs so damn much to try and eat healthy. It sucks. Just trying to eat healthier foods made it tough even on my last job, not to mention now it's damn near impossible on a part time salary. You try to eat less fast food, more chicken, fish, and fresh fruits/veggies and holy crap, you're paying out the nose.

If you can't eat properly on the income you make, and you're otherwise living according to the definition I listed above, I'd consider that income to be poverty level.

I'd think that would make a strong case for someone who lives like that to make up a detailed budget, demonstrating the cost of living in that area, and show it to the appropriate politicians who decree what minimum wage is in that area. Request a rise in minimum wage to the level that will let you live properly. Get the local churches and other charities who deal with the poor onside (a bonus is that these charities will realise you're in need, and working to get out of need).

If the income you get isn't enough to live properly, and you're not on minimum wage but higher than that, then it's time to kick up one hell of a stink. Something has to give.

[powerboy]

The whole food thing is a bit tough imo. It costs so damn much to try and eat healthy. It sucks. Just trying to eat healthier foods made it tough even on my last job, not to mention now it's damn near impossible on a part time salary. You try to eat less fast food, more chicken, fish, and fresh fruits/veggies and holy crap, you're paying out the nose.

I was going to make a thread about this subject.

It does cost so much, to just and eat healthy. And it just doesn't matter if you are rich or not. I think that is why alot of people are fat, because things that healthy for you cost so much. And a lot of people just cannot afford it every time.

My life is poverty. Where I come from, we have to work for the things we have, and still have nothing to show for it. Except for a house, but that is still being paid for. Cars, still being paid for. It is hard for me, to see people with brand new vehicles, because currently, I cannot afford one. Banks will not give me a loan, for one. I am trying to change my life for the better, but everyone is just shutting every door. It sucks, it honestly sucks to be poor.

In your post, you make it seem that just anyone can have a better life. But that is not the case, some people can, but not everyone.

[Boozy]

My life is poverty. Where I come from, we have to work for the things we have, and still have nothing to show for it. Except for a house, but that is still being paid for. Cars, still being paid for. It is hard for me, to see people with brand new vehicles, because currently, I cannot afford one. Banks will not give me a loan, for one. I am trying to change my life for the better, but everyone is just shutting every door. It sucks, it honestly sucks to be poor.

You are not poor. You have a house and two cars. You eat. This puts you in the top 5% of richest human beings on the face of the planet.

Westerners need to stop comparing their wealth to the Paris Hiltons and the Donald Trumps of the world, and get some perspective.

[rahmota]

Boozy: Poverty is a highly realtive issue. Just because someone has managed through one set of circumstances or another managed to acquire or own material goods does not mean they are not still able to be considered living in poverty.

Using myself as an example:

I own 64 acres of farm land. This land has been passed down for the previous 3 generations in my family so I did not buy the land. I have paid the inheritance tax which depleted the farm bank account, The crops pay for the work putting them out and harvesting them and barely cover the property taxes so we can keep the land and have a decent home where we want to live. That home is a 30 year old mobile home that I have rebuilt and repaired so many times that if the orginal manufacturer came he would not recognize it. Its tax value $35. The metal siding's scrap value is worth more than the entire mobile home.

I own 4 vehicles. The newest one is a 1992 that I bought from a salvage yard rebuild place. The others I bought out of people's front yards. All four of them together book for $2500. My pickup books only for the scrap value of the metal in it. For reason's that are rather complex and tiring to explain I cannot sell any of these vehicles as they are needed and used on an almost daily basis for one reason or another by the 3 adults who live on this farm. Hell when the truck goes down that is a crisis of biblical proportions. My life and livlihood is determined by the truck and the tractor and the farm equipment. Fixing these things and keeping them going is not a cheap thing.

With a family of 4 my total income for the year from all sources still falls around 10 grand below federal guidelines for poverty level in Ohio. I am considered poor. MY bills are scraped by with a few sometimes not getting paid until next month if an emergency came up and took what savings we had accrued. This is with three adults having an income living here on the farm.

We have no savings account, no stocks, no bonds, nothing but the cash in my pocket and a few bucks in the checking accounts. Stocks are the priviledge of the welathy to play with to make any real money. And yes I said accounts, one for the farm which my grandfather setup and one for the wife and I. I wont tell you the total net balance in both but suffice to say it is below $1000 on average for the month.

Yes I have a few of the nice thigns in life and needless toys. This is because the wife and I know how to budget within an inch of screaming, know how to shop for good deals, dont mind settling for a off brand product and know how to make do with next to nothing. We have no problem buying something used. Yard sales and flea markets are our friends. I hunt for some of our food. My wife makes some of our clothes. I consider myself rather lucky in the way that I grew up and live lets me have the opportunity to do so. Many people do not have the luxury that I do in that they cannot go out and hunt for their food. They cannot set out a garden to have vegitables. they have to go to the store and pay whatever the store wants to charge them.

So yeah while I may have the basic needs met. I can eat, I can feed my family, I have a decent home. I can be considered in many ways to be the prime example of the middle class white guy. I am not wealthy by any stretch of the imagination. It takes a lot of hard work and careful planning to stay right where I am. The status quo is a lot more difficult to maintain than you might think. One wrong move, one unplanned emergency, some extra charge or fee can throw thigns way off balance that can be a struggle to get back on an even keel from. Whats sad is there are a lot more people like me or worse off than me than there are better off.


In this country many people need to have a car to get to work so they can pay for their aprtment, pay for their kids clothes pay for all the things that modern society demands people have or the children services or health department or some other busy body meddler will come in and ruin a person's life. yes many people do have their priorities a bit off. But many other people are working their lives away so they can try and dig out of the hole society for one reason or another has thrown them into. Like I said in the other thread not everyone is poor because they choose to do so. Not everyone is able to fight the system which is stacked against a person without money and priviledge to get a piece of the american pie. Corporate america likes to make sure the wageslave is kept down and oppressed so they can abuse them and the federal government just helps them right along in that program.

Yes relative to the rest of the world even the poorest dirt farmer in america is a wealthy bastard. But we should not use that standard as that is insulting and degrading to the people in america. Comparing people in america to people in america is a much better measure of the poverty or welath of a person in america. Just because donald trump, bill gates or paris hilton are exorbanently rich does not excuse our society for letting joe farmer, sally waitress or danny clerk be mired in poverty. Comparatively speaking america is just as socially and monetarily stratified as inda or saudi arabia when you compare american's wealth to other american's wealth. Capitalism is a failure and we need to unhitch the wagon from the concept that corporate greed is good and should be rewarded. Poverty is a very real and definate problem in this country and can be eradicated if and only if people stop forgiving the rich and powerful for being greedy and stop blaming the poor for being poor.

So I'm sorry boozy but I'll have to disagree with you. Poverty is not about how much you own, or even what you own. But how you are able to live your life. Worry about where your next money is coming from worry of where its going. How can you pay this bill, how can you take little johnny to the doctor, how are you goign to make it into work tomorrow. Can you get enough food to feed everyone until the next payday, do you get food or do you get gas to get to work. DO you buy a pair of pants or a pair of shoes. How are you goign to get the kids school clothes so they dont get yelled at or have children services get you since poverty is a crime to them. There is so much more to being poor than just how much you own or how much money you have.

And I did not use myself as an example to try and garner any pity or handouts or anything like that I did so to show you that poverty comes in many flavors. That the surface appearance of many people does not tell you about their true life and the problems they have.

[Seshat]

My life is poverty. Where I come from, we have to work for the things we have, and still have nothing to show for it. Except for a house, but that is still being paid for. Cars, still being paid for.
In your post, you make it seem that just anyone can have a better life. But that is not the case, some people can, but not everyone.

If you have enough income to cover the necessities and a little left over, then you can have a better life. If you don't, you can't. I'll also add that you have to have enough time and energy to utilise that little bit of additional income - something I didn't factor in, in my original post.

If you're in the position where a single unexpected expense will tip you over the edge (and it's not because of wasting money), or where you have to choose between one necessity and another, then you're poor by my definition.

Now going to the specific case of rahmota: you mentioned that you have 'a few nice things and needless toys'. That's evidence that at least at some stage, you had 'a little left over'. Some people who are poor choose to spend it on these things, others choose to spend it on an attempt to get out of poverty.

I'm not sitting here speculating on what it is to be poor, by the way. Shortly after my wedding, I crashed into serious illness. Couldn't work, and my husband didn't dare leave me alone to go and work. We're only alive because of the welfare system in this country - unfortunately, they didn't want to believe I was genuinely ill. So they labelled us as people who didn't want to work and were milking the system. We never knew if we'd get a payment or not.

But I managed to get gradually healthier (thank god for state medical care!), enough for him to leave me unattended and do part time work. Which gave us that 'little bit extra' I talk about. Between using that extra money carefully, and my increasing health, and his gradually improving jobs, we've clawed our way to 'financially okay'.

Rahmone's 1992 car is newer than ours. We finally bought a house - okay, the bank owns it, but we're working on that. It's in an unpopular part of the city, and it's not at all pretty, but it's a roof and four walls and the architect we hired to inspect it assured us it's not about to fall down. We're grateful to live in a country where fresh fruit and veggies cost less than prepared pseudo-food. We're grateful for state health care, and for welfare. But we also know how to make stale bread edible, and I can make cheese from old milk.

[protege]

My family was poor when I was growing up. Things weren't too bad when I was little--house in the 'burbs, multiple cars, etc.

By the mid-1980s, most of that came to an end. My father's advertising agency was struggling. He'd given up a good job with a big firm in order to spend more time with a growing family. By 1982, there were 3 kids to feed, clothe, and take care of.

Many of his clients were the steel mills and manufacturers in the area. Because of the recession, and the general downturn in the local economy, most of them either went out of business, or left the area. That's when the trouble started. By 1992-93, the ad agency had failed, and he was working multiple jobs to make ends meet. However, even with that, and my mother's full-time job, things were tough. I remember being cold in the winter, simply because they couldn't afford to heat the house very well. In fact, their furnace failed during one of the coldest winters (1993-94) ever. While all that was going on, my father wouldn't take a handout. Not that he could anyway--my mother's job brought in too much, so we weren't eligible. He couldn't get another job, simply because nobody would hire him because of his age. He had to work multiple odd jobs, and was usually tired and cranky.

Remember the house and 2 cars? Because what little cash went towards food, water and other important bills, some serious maintenance got deferred on things. Whatever we had, had to last. Their cars, both Volvos (a beat-up '79 sedan, and an '81 wagon--say what you will about yuppies, my parents bought them for safety, not the snob image), were literally run into the ground. Both had high mileages (200,000+ on the sedan!), and were literally falling apart. There simply wasn't enough cash to fix them properly. They were both gone by about '92...and replaced by a series of true shit cars, which again, were *always* breaking down.

The house wasn't in too bad of shape, but it did need some work. It didn't look bad from the street, simply because my parents wouldn't let the place look bad. Most of the problems were largely hidden. The furnace was never checked, and usually had problems during winter. It would take forever to fire up, and occasionally quit running. Several rooms were in bad shape--no power, or had flickering lights. Plumbing was also bad at times--it had been patched multiple times, rather than replaced.

There simply wasn't any cash to repair things. My parents weren't foolish with their cash--they used what they had to take care of us kids. However, it eventually stretched them too thin, and destroyed their credit rating.

Fast forward a few years, and my parents are just *now* getting out of that mess. Dad went back to school and is now a teacher. It's not all peaches and cream though--they're still struggling, mainly because of past problems. Just last year, they couldn't pay their school taxes...which nearly cost them the house! I got them out of that mess--Grandma ended up giving my mother an early "inheritance" gift, which saved the day.

What I'm trying to say is, after living through that once, I'll be *damned* if I'm going to do it again. Trust me, having to grow up like that sucked. Not because of the cold, or the deferred repairs, but I took a *lot* of abuse from people because of it. Yep, it made an effect on me--I stayed in school, put myself through college, etc. and vowed that I was *not* going to struggle like that.

[Boozy]

Boozy: Poverty is a highly realtive issue.

Poverty is only a relative issue if you make it one. In comparison to the Trumps, I am dirt poor. In comparison to someone living in the black hole of Calcutta, I am wildly rich.

I believe Raps said something about this in another thread - about how wrong it is that the bottom 10% of people are always going to be considered poor, and consider themselves poor, regardless of what we do, and regardless of how rich we are as a society. And its because we compare ourselves upwardly instead of with those with less.

Here's how I choose to compare my wealth: I have a 15-year old piece of scrap to drive. A lot of people don't have anything to drive. I do not own a house, and will likely not be able to afford to for many years. But a lot of people can't afford rent and are homeless. I can't afford to buy whatever food I want in the grocery store. But unlike a lot of others, I am never hungry.

There are not enough resources in this world to support the earth's current population at the economic levels most North Americans would consider extremely modest. If you have a car and a home - any car and any home - you are already a resource hog. I'm not saying its wrong to own these things, I'm just saying its something to consider.

[Seshat]

I believe Raps said something about this in another thread - about how wrong it is that the bottom 10% of people are always going to be considered poor, and consider themselves poor, regardless of what we do, and regardless of how rich we are as a society.

That's why I use absolute values, Boozy. Because I agree with you. If you have a house that's solid and not going to fall down around you, if you have enough nutritious food, if you have some sort of safe transport to your job and the other places you need to go, if you have medical care, and all the various other essential etceteras, you're not below what I consider to be the poverty line.

By comparison with your society, by comparison with your peers, you might be horrendously poor. But you have enough, so you're not what I consider to be poor enough to need help.

If a society has enough wealth, as a society, for all its working citizens and all its incapable-of-working citizens to have enough, but it distributes its wealth too unevenly to achieve that, I think the society has serious problems.

[rahmota]

Ok to reply in order back:

Seshat:

Now going to the specific case of rahmota: you mentioned that you have 'a few nice things and needless toys'. That's evidence that at least at some stage, you had 'a little left over'. Some people who are poor choose to spend it on these things, others choose to spend it on an attempt to get out of poverty.

Yeah a few years back I did manage to get a good corporate job. I was ahead of the game at the time period as I had enough money to manage everything, set some aside and get some nice stuff. Yeah I wasnt bill gates but I dont want to be bill gates, I'm not that greedy. And yes in my opinion anyone who wants to be that rich is a worthless greedy bastard scumbag taking more than their fair share of things.. I had the perfect life IMO. The the great downsizing of 2000 came and the Dubya years of destruction of the economy by the republicans and the great schism of amerika and blammo. I'm back down fighting to stay breakign even. Like too many people in america.

If you have enough income to cover the necessities and a little left over, then you can have a better life

Not really. You have to fight against many different roadblocks put in place to keep the poor folks outside the gates of the rich. Credit checks, excessive fees for initial investments, business laws that favor big business over small ones. All sorts of things that make it harder than just waving a magic wand to get ahead even if you happen to have a bit left over. Not to mention all the various lovely little surprises in life that can and usually do spring up to take that little bit left over away from you.

If a society has enough wealth, as a society, for all its working citizens and all its incapable-of-working citizens to have enough, but it distributes its wealth too unevenly to achieve that, I think the society has serious problems.

I will agree with you there in that.

And yeah while my 1992 car may be newer than yours I have had my share of beasts, beaters and thigns quite literally held together at times with duct tape. One of the joys of growing up the way I did was to be able to learn to fix thigns myself to cut out some of the costs and the necessety of putting somethign apart and back together on the side of a road in the rain. Like had happened to me several times in the past.

Protege: Yeah I hear what you're talking about. Once a person goes down that slippery slope from having to beign a have not its hard to get back up.

Boozy:

Poverty is only a relative issue if you make it one. In comparison to the Trumps, I am dirt poor. In comparison to someone living in the black hole of Calcutta, I am wildly rich.

See Boozy that is an invalid comparison. Thats like comparing the salt levels of the atlantic ocean and your bathtub water. If you want to compare the levels of poverty in america then look only at america. Bring nothign else into the conversation or comparison. Poverty levels between america and canada are an invalid comparision unless you are talkign about the relative poverty levels of the entire nation as a whole. But when comparing individual or family poverty levels in america only americans can be counted for comparison.

There are not enough resources in this world to support the earth's current population at the economic levels most North Americans would consider extremely modest.

Actually yes there are if the uber rich are stopped from hoggin it all. Humanity has one of the worst capabilities for resource management of any animal in the history of the world. America and capitalism especially.

Defineing poverty is a very difficult task as each person defines it just differently enough. I said that seshats definition is a reasonably good one. Its not the only one. A persistent lack of income or personal wealth. ie not getting beyond breakign even or staying within the status quo. being under employed. Having to make do with the table scraps and leftovers from the higher social classes.

So a person can be employed, have a home and a car and they still can be poor and living in a poverty condition.

[Seshat]

Not really. You have to fight against many different roadblocks put in place to keep the poor folks outside the gates of the rich. Credit checks, excessive fees for initial investments, business laws that favor big business over small ones.

I said 'better', not necessarily 'middle class'. Do laundry for a neighbour. Sell hand-made stationery. Small things that make a small, but significant difference. The roadblocks aren't as important for micro-business. And then you have more resources, with which to work around them.

If you want to compare the levels of poverty in america then look only at america. Bring nothign else into the conversation or comparison

I don't. I'm talking about poverty on a global scale, regardless of location.

Actually yes there are if the uber rich are stopped from hoggin it all.

As I understand it, there isn't enough to support six billion at American-middle-class levels. I haven't personally done the math, but I've gone and stood on the edge of the Outback (I'm Australian), and run my hands through the soil of the Darling Downs. I know what the soil fertility of Australia is, and know what our rainfall is like. We're on the edge of unsustainability, here, and we don't average middle-class-America living standards.

My instincts tell me that the math is right - that the world can't support six billion people at middle-class-America living standards. But I suspect we can support six billion people above the poverty level as I described it.

ie not getting beyond breakign even or staying within the status quo. being under employed.

If 'breaking even' or 'status quo' means that you have enough, I don't count you as poor. I consider the desire for constant growth and improvement to be a pathology. What's wrong with having enough?

Having to make do with the table scraps and leftovers from the higher social classes.

Bah. Irrelevant to my definition. Relative poverty doesn't equal absolute poverty. If you have enough, you have enough, regardless of whether it's 'leftovers' or not.

So a person can be employed, have a home and a car and they still can be poor and living in a poverty condition.

Yes: if they don't have enough in other ways.


I make a distinction between being poor, and being a lower social class. The former is a public health and welfare problem, the latter is a social condition.

The latter may or may not be symptomatic of a societal problem, but it's not a health/well-being problem.

[Boozy]

rahmota, I don't really need to respond to you point by point, because when it comes right down to it, I suspect we agree on more things than not.

I am also appalled at the rich-poor gap in America, and I definitely believe it should be addressed. But on a more personal scale, I am also concerned about people making themselves miserable by needlessly comparing themselves to those richer than themselves.

Studies have indicated that someone making $50,000 a year in a neighbourhood with a median income of $25,000 is happier than someone making $100,000 a year in a neighbourhood with a median income of $150,000 (with purchasing power equivalent in both cases). This tells us a lot about our attitudes. As such, we may all be happier if we start looking at the world outside the west.

As far as my assertion that the world can't support 6 billion of us at middle-class levels, I stand by that opinion. The environment would be the first casualty of this kind of consumption, which would be disastrous for all of us. For example, a millionaire may have 10 cars, but can only drive one at a time. If his wealth were distributed fairly, his 10 cars would now belong to ten different people, and they would likely be driven far more frequently. 10 times the environmental impact.

I will admit that advancements in technology may change the world's capacity in the future. For example, 20 years ago the idea that India would be able to feed its 1 billion residents would have been laughable. Today, we know that advances in hybrid seed have created a miracle wheat, and India's farmland now yields so much of it that they rarely need to import.