Non-Christians Celebrating Christmas

[Ree]

Oh yeah. I missed that lesson in school when they told us that "Christ's Mass" later shortened to "Christmas" meant a gluttonous orgy of commercialism.

Thanks for clearing that up.

I had forgotten we can substitute whatever words we want to mean something else and twist the language under the guise of claiming that the language is constantly changing and evolving, so words that once meant one thing now mean another.

[Kalli]

Oh yeah. I missed that lesson in school when they told us that "Christ's Mass" later shortened to "Christmas" meant a gluttonous orgy of commercialism.

I don't participate in Christ's Mass, nor do I participate in a "gluttonous orgy of commercialism". I still love and celebrate Christmas as I (and millions of others) know it. If you want to call my version of Christmas something else, go ahead. Don't, however, tell me what to call it. (Especially when you suggested I call it something that is literally the polar opposite of my Christmas).

I had forgotten we can substitute whatever words we want to mean something else and twist the language under the guise of claiming that the language is constantly changing and evolving, so words that once meant one thing now mean another.

That's exactly how the evolution of language works. Do you think I just waltzed into this thread and re-defined the word Christmas? It has been evolving for many years without me.

[Rapscallion]

It's important to remember that it began as a religious festival, and it still has significance for truly religious people. It's not really evolution of language, but more that culture has evolved in the majority.

I do find it hypocritical, but not enough to shout about it. I participate to the extent of buying presents for the closest people to me and ignoring it other than that. That's enough to keep me in with my family/friends, and that's about it. I recognise its religious base and am quite happy to keep as far from it as I can. Not easy to do in this day and age, though when I'm independently wealthy I intend to patronise the hotel that offers christmas-free breaks.

Rapscallion

[Ree]

Do you think I just waltzed into this thread and re-defined the word Christmas? It has been evolving for many years without me.

Do you think I just waltzed into this thread and decided you alone had redefined the word "Christmas"?
My issue is with all those who nullified the "Christ" part of Christmas and turned it secular in the first place.

You do admit , however, that you don't participate in "Christ's Mass", so you are, in my opinion, being hypocritical by saying you celebrate "Christmas".

If you want to call my version of Christmas something else, go ahead. Don't, however, tell me what to call it. (Especially when you suggested I call it something that is literally the polar opposite of my Christmas).

"Christmas" was originated by Christians as a celebration of the birth of Christ. They chose to use the time of a pagan festival for the date.
Many of the holiday traditions have their basis in this and other pagan celebrations.
I fail to see, then, how I am suggesting something that is the polar opposite of Christmas by asking people who do not honour or celebrate the birth of Christ as a part of their holiday tradition to stop using a name that evokes the image of "Christ" to define what has become a very secular celebration.

[Boozy]

I always laugh at people of a certain religion who do not celebrate the holidays and condemn Christmas as secular and pagan, but never turn down the Christmas bonuses given to staff in celebration of it.

Does your company officially call their year-end bonuses "Christmas" bonuses, or are they just known that way colloquially among the staff?

In any case, I don't see anything wrong with a non-Christian accepting a year-end bonus that is given out around the holidays. Even if the company is officially giving them out as "Christmas" gifts.

I'm not Christian, but I work every bit as hard as my Christian co-workers during the holiday season. I earn my bonus at work, not at church.

[RecoveringKinkoid]

Do you think I

"Christmas" was originated by Christians as a celebration of the birth of Christ. They chose to use the time of a pagan festival for the date.
Many of the holiday traditions have their basis in this and other pagan celebrations.
I fail to see, then, how I am suggesting something that is the polar opposite of Christmas by asking people who do not honour or celebrate the birth of Christ as a part of their holiday tradition to stop using a name that evokes the image of "Christ" to define what has become a very secular celebration.

Sorry, yeah, I got to go with Ree on this one. She's right.

She's saying, if I am correct, "This is like you having a party and calling it Mass." It's a good argument, and I agree with her.

Which makes me think: you know how Christians complain about "Winter Holiday" or whatever being substituted for "Christmas"? Maybe they need to not get upset over that. Running out to the mall or tree lot has technically nothing to do with Christmas, but everything to do with our Winter Holiday. For some people it's the same thing, for others it isn't.

Now, as to how people want to use the word or not, I could not care less. It does not affect me. It has picked up secular connoctations, but you could argue that so has the word "Jesus Christ", expecially in relation to His middle initial and his bicycle.

[BroomJockey]

They chose to use the time of a pagan festival for the date.

Yes, to more easily convert the heathens by making it so that they didn't have to no longer celebrate at certain times of the year. It was a political move by the Christian church, meant solely as a power play. It had nothing to do with celebrating the birth of Christ, or they'd have picked a date a little closer to his actual date of birth. You know what they picked Dec. 25? Because it was a longstanding tradition in most pagan cultures to be seen around that time as the time of rebirth. And I don't get a "Christmas" bonus. Back when I did get extra pay at this time of year, you know what it was? My VACATION PAY. That I'd EARNED throughout the year by working. It wasn't even a bonus. Eventually, they just started giving it to us on each paycheque to simplify bookkeeping, and every job I've had since then has done similarly.

So I'm sorry, but if you go back to the "origins" of Christmas, it wasn't chosen for its particular relevance to Christianity, but as a method to wipe out other ideologies and religions. Celebrate that, why don't you?

[Nyoibo]

but as a method to wipe out other ideologies and religions. Celebrate that, why don't you?

Well they celebrate Thanksgiving.

[Fryk]

I think that non-christians celebrating christian holidays is something believers will have to just let go. I mean, how would you conceivably tell someone to stop celebrating a holiday? How would you make that stick? And what exactly is Jesus doing in heaven? Is he up there going, "Oh my ME! These people are celebrating the day of my birth, even though they say they don't believe in me! I shall smite them all!!"
I mean, after all, if someone you don't know walks up to you and tells you "Happy Birthday," are you going to smack them in the face for it?
And if I don't celebrate christmas, and someone gives me a present, do I throw it back in their face and tell them to keep their sorry religious gift? Ditto for a christmas bonus. Yeeaaaaahhhhhh, way to make friends and influence people.

[RecoveringKinkoid]

That's what I'm saying. Who cares?

I mean, I agree that it's not technically "Christmas", but it's not something I care about one way or the other. How I celebrate and what I believe is my business. Same for everyone else.

[protege]

Of course all of this can be solved...simply by celebrating Winter-Een-Mas

Seriously folks, I'm not religious at all, yet I was raised Roman Catholic. Got tired of that, mainly because of my mother dragging me to church on Sundays and being told that I'd "go to hell" if I didn't do whatever she said. No wonder that I turned away from that idea, and am now an agnostic. Or, an atheist, if you prefer.

For me, Christmas has always been about family. Getting together with annoying relatives that we don't see very often, and eating way too much. Much like our Thanksgivings, in fact Sure, we get presents both Christmas Eve and Day...but that's not really what it's about.

[BroomJockey]

How I celebrate and what I believe is my business. Same for everyone else.

This is why you're cool.

[RecoveringKinkoid]

Why, thank you, Broom.

[guywithashovel]

When I first started this thread, it seemed like everyone on the board was going to agree with one point of view. But now, some other points of view have been brought into the discussion.

To some extent, it does seem a little hypocritical to celebrate the holiday if you aren't an active Christian. However, as I mentioned earlier in the thread, it really doesn't seem to me that very many people focus on the religious aspect of the holiday, anyway. From my observation, most people---Christian or not---seem primarily focused on the presents, the family get-togethers, getting all the shopping done, the food, and wondering how to deal with the less-sane members of the family. Point being, it's become a pretty secular holiday over time. So in that light, there doesn't appear to be much hypocrisy in a non-Christian celebrating Christmas. After all, most Christians celebrate Halloween, a holiday with undeniable pagan origins.

Also, Ree brought up an interesting point. She pointed out that Christmas was developed out of Christ Mass. On this note, I will reiterate someone I stated at the beginning of the thread.

Wednesday originally meant either "Woden's Day" or "Odin's Day." If you acknowledge Wednesday, do you believe in Woden and/or Odin?


EDIT: Around Christmas time, I usually just think of myself as celebrating the end of the year. Just throwing that in.
Thursday originally meant "Thor's Day." If you acknowledge Thursday, do you believe in Thor?

[Kalli]

You do admit , however, that you don't participate in "Christ's Mass", so you are, in my opinion, being hypocritical by saying you celebrate "Christmas".

Again, the word means something different to me than it did to those who created it. It's not "Christ's Mass" to me, it's "Christmas", an entirely different meaning, although to some it is still Christ's Mass.

I fail to see, then, how I am suggesting something that is the polar opposite of Christmas

Sorry, this one's my bad - I was referring to your suggestion to call it "winter festival", because Christmas is in summer where I live. Get it? Polar opposite? I was trying to be clever but I was way too obscure about it, and it got away from me. lol.


I should explain the reasons I'm getting defensive at you labeling me as hypocritical. There are 2.

1) I'm not sure I understand why it matters. Christmas makes me happy, I'm not hurting anyone, I'm bringing joy into my house with my Christmas. Why is it necessary to nitpick about the historical correctness of the word? I could pick any post by anyone in this thread, and there'd be 10 words in it that aren't used perfectly correctly, or that mean something totally different than they used to.

2) I don't believe it is hypocrisy at all. If I participated in the Christian aspects of the holiday, that would be hypocrisy, because as I've made all to clear, I hate Christianity. However, I celebrate the holiday in an entirely secular festive way, zero religion. I simply use the same label for it. Hypocrisy denotes pretense; I have none of that.