Non-Christians Celebrating Christmas

[RecoveringKinkoid]

I'm pretty partial to this guy.

[DesignFox]

This thread has officially entered the WTF? territory. LOL!

My other point in bringing up Futurama was that it shows how the ideas of things change over time. Granted, most of what changes according to the show are absolutely ludicrus, but language, traditions, etc. can and do change.

Christians may not like it, but it seems to me that Christmas is becoming more secular. I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that, in certain areas of the country, not everyone is turning to religion as much as they used to OR they are members of religions other than Christianity. It could be for a variety of reasons. *shrug* I just "grew out" of my religion. I don't agree with a lot of what the Catholic church does or says...so, despite having been raised Catholic, I can't affiliate myself with the church, anymore. I'm not changing the name of my holiday just because someone else doesn't like what I'm calling it. It's been Christmas to me ever since I was born. I don't feel I should have to change the name of the holiday because 15 years later I stopped going to Church.

Not to mention that, everyone else calls it that, just get over it and let it go. And people on the opposite end of the spectrum who get offended when someone says, "Happy (insert holiday here)" need to get over themselves as well. If someone says something nice to you in an effort to be good-willed, just say thank you! Take it in the spirit it was intended, rather than be offended that someone thought you were Christian or Jewish or whatever when you aren't.

Granted-
I don't like the commercial whore-ism that the retailers and businesses seem to have programmed into everyone over the years....but I like the ideal spirit of the season. As long as the core of the holiday remains as part of someone's celebration, who the hell cares if they call it Christmas but don't worship Jesus?

I don't think it's fair to make someone have to explain themselves every holiday season.

[Lace Neil Singer]

I also doubt that Jesus would like his followers to segregate non believers from the celebration of his birth. *shrugs* Didn't he preach tolerance and understanding?

[Ree]

I also doubt that Jesus would like his followers to segregate non believers from the celebration of his birth. *shrugs* Didn't he preach tolerance and understanding?

I don't think anybody is segregating non believers from celebrating his birth. I certainly am not.

My point was that a large majority aren't actually celebrating his birth, because there is nothing even remotely resembling a celebration of the birth of Christ, yet they call it celebrating Christmas.

If a non-believer wants to put up a nativity scene and play religious themed Christmas Carols, I have no problem with that.
I would probably wonder why, but if that's what they want to do, and that's their tradition, then fine.
"Hypocritical" is such a nasty word, with negative connotations, but, yes, it does seem at odds to say you are a non-believer but then put up an image of, or sing about something you don't believe in, but if that's what you want to do, then that's your right.

It's even your right to refuse to have Christ anywhere near your celebrations.

As has been said many times, who are we to judge?

But, again, if you do that, then it's my opinion that it's not really a "Christmas" celebration.

[Lace Neil Singer]

I go round my parents' house for Christmas. My mother is a Christian, and decorates the house with Christian related Christmas stuff. My dad is Jewish and has his candle thing (sorry, can't remember what it's called) up. Doesn't bother me in the slightest. And yes, if someone asked me to a carol service, I would sing the carols. I was actually raised a Christian, and I know most of them off by heart anyway, just as I know a lot of the bible etc. I think it's far more hypocritical to claim to be Christian, and act in a non Christian way, by being judgemental and nasty to people just cuz they don't believe. Or to go materialistically crazy at Christmas and treat it in a secular manner.

By the way, that isn't directed at anyone on the board.

[Kalli]

Yeah, I agree with Lace.

Ree isn't wrong. She makes a good point, and isn't being intolerant of non-Christians celebrating Christmas, simply stating her opinion, which no matter how you break it down, is quite valid. (Believe me, I tried :P)

But there are people who do get sand in their pants about it, just as there are atheists who get sand in their pants about Christmas being celebrated publicly.

I think this is one of those threads where we got caught up in semantics, and didn't even realise we were all actually on the same side of the original debate - which is that people should just have their own opinions, do what you want or don't want with Christmas, and let others do the same.

*group hug*

[Ree]

By the way, that isn't directed at anyone on the board.

I would hope not, because if it was, I would have to wonder at what point I passed judgment, because that really wasn't my intent.

[AdminAssistant]

My dad is Jewish and has his candle thing (sorry, can't remember what it's called) up.

It's called a menorah, I think.

[flybye023]

I agree with Ree's original post. Just a few points though, that I want to add to the discussion.

First, to those that are arguing that it is no longer very religious...maybe in your circle it is secular but I can assure you that to many people it is very much a religious holiday and is used to reflect on the birth of Christ and His mission here on earth.

I think the analogy of the days of the week is actually a poor argument. We don't celebrate days of the week, so it's not being hypocritical to stick with the current names. As one of the previous posters pointed out, the Chinese have just numbered them. To me, it's just a way of keeping them clear and having a calendar. Same with the months. If we actually celebrated the month...

As far as work acknowledgment goes--I just got out of a meeting at work where they were discussing our holiday celebration. It will be in the first week of December and they are calling it the Holiday Party. I am new to this group and am planning to go because I feel it will be a good time to get to know my co-workers better. One of my co-workers was going on and on about how unfair that was to the people who didn't celebrate the holidays and were choosing to stay away from it (it will be during the workday) and basically suggested we "boycott, but not really boycott the party...just maybe not show up." <---her words exactly.

At this point I though she had a point but then she went on to say that in a previous year it had been called a year-end celebration and these same people still hadn't appeared. Apparently they still felt the religious connotation and chose to stay away. (I'm not sure of the reasons but from conversations I've heard there are probably some Jehovah's Witnesses and Muslims in my new group which makes sense.) My old job called it a year-end thank you party and held it either the last week of December or in the first two weeks of January. The year I was there, we actually had to push it back into February. This seems to me to be the most...tactful? way to do it in the workplace.

And finally, as a bit of trivia, in the LDS church we believe that Christ's birthday is actually April 6.

[guywithashovel]

I think the analogy of the days of the week is actually a poor argument. We don't celebrate days of the week, so it's not being hypocritical to stick with the current names. As one of the previous posters pointed out, the Chinese have just numbered them. To me, it's just a way of keeping them clear and having a calendar. Same with the months. If we actually celebrated the month...

You're splitting hairs. Yes, we usually don't "celebrate" the days of the week, but most of us do acknowledge them, and since most of them are named after Pagan gods, I think the same principle can be applied to them. However, some people do occasionally celebrate Friday (e.g. TGIF), and that's named after a deity named Frey, and I'm sure most of the people saying "TGIF" don't believe in Frey.

But, if you still don't like this analogy, we can just use Halloween. Most people, regardless of religious affiliation, acknowledge or celebrate that holiday in one form or another, and that holiday is undeniably pagan in origin.

[RecoveringKinkoid]

Well, if a non believer were to put up a creche because they liked the story and the tradtion, I can totally understand that.

It's no different than me, a Christian, thinking that Krampus up there is made of awesome.

[Ree]

Well, if a non believer were to put up a creche because they liked the story and the tradtion, I can totally understand that.

Well, like I said, if they want to do it, then fine. I can understand that, I guess.
No skin off my ass. LOL.

I would think it was odd, but I wouldn't demand they take it down. LOL

[crashhelmet]

This is absolutely absurd! What on earth makes you think we would do that? Obviously we like Christmas, or we wouldn't be celebrating it now, would we?

There are many people that get pissed off when someone wishes them a "Merry Christmas." Some of these people have the Anti-Christian stance that some people on this board share. Some of these people get offended over whatever they can feel offended about. But yet, they find it perfectly acceptable to partake in most, if not all, of the Christmas traditions. I call bullshit on that.

Now, hang on a sec. What about celebrating the holiday out of love and excitement for something that brings me in touch with the innocence of my childhood, brings me together with my family, allows me to celebrate festive, fun meals and rituals and is generally a fantastic time? What exactly do you mean by greed and convenience?

I've got no problem with people getting into the "Christmas Spirit," regardless of what their religious beliefs may be. If you associate the holiday with a time to spend with friends and family, then think of that when someone wishes you a Merry Christmas. Because, after all, that's what Christmas means to you. "Merry Christmas" does not mean "Believe in Christ as your Lord and Savior or you're going to Hell you heathen!!!!1!eleventy"

The greed and convenience comes from those that still expect to receive gifts, partake in the parties, take the time off, etc etc etc but yet still bash it every chance they get. Once again, something to call bullshit on.

I'm very taken aback that you would call me selfish and self-centered for celebrating Christmas. I'm also taken aback at being called hypocritical, but at least I can understand the point of view there. I cannot understand your point of view at all, to be honest.

Hopefully I've cleared this up enough to make my point understandable.

To put it simpler...

If you partake in the traditions, you've got no right to be offended when someone wishes you to enjoy them.

CH

[DesignFox]

<snip>

If you partake in the traditions, you've got no right to be offended when someone wishes you to enjoy them.

CH

Exactly. I was trying to say something like that in my post somewhere, but this says it much better. If you celebrate, great! Don't get all twisted if someone makes a statement in good will about it, just because you aren't religious. \

Although, I have to say, the kind of person that gets offended about being told "Merry Christmas" during the season is probably not someone I would associate with. I mean, c'mon. Unless someone is purposely saying it in a rude or condescending manner... get over it! A vast majority of people celebrate Christmas. It's just the way it is. So, chances are, someone will tell you Merry Christmas. Get over it. XD

As to the comment about Christmas still being very religious to some people, of course it is. I think depending on what part of the country you are from, it will vary.

Around here, there aren't too many what you'd call...enthusiastic... Christians. Most people are either very quiet about it, are of the "twice a year" variety, or just plain stopped practicing. But even that varies depending what part of my state you visit.

*shrug*

I didn't mean to make it sound like anyone here was being intolerant. Opinion is one thing. Acting against another person because of it, quite another. I haven't seen evidence of that from anyone here.

[Slytovhand]

Allow me to be the intolerant one then

...and I'm sure most of the people saying "TGIF" don't believe in Frey.

Irony??

As far as work acknowledgment goes--I just got out of a meeting at work where they were discussing our holiday celebration. It will be in the first week of December and they are calling it the Holiday Party. I am new to this group and am planning to go because I feel it will be a good time to get to know my co-workers better. One of my co-workers was going on and on about how unfair that was to the people who didn't celebrate the holidays and were choosing to stay away from it (it will be during the workday) and basically suggested we "boycott, but not really boycott the party...just maybe not show up." <---her words exactly.

Ummm... what??? Other than 'I choose not to have any form of celebrations for any reason, and thus they have to work all the time that the others are having fun', I really have no idea what this person is on about!

But, if you still don't like this analogy, we can just use Halloween. Most people, regardless of religious affiliation, acknowledge or celebrate that holiday in one form or another, and that holiday is undeniably pagan in origin.

You can... and I'll still bitch about that one! (already have on this board... ) Although, you are quite right - it is a good analogy... continued to it's logical conclusion. Some people choose to celebrate a festival around this time - either Day of the Dead or Samhuin or some other such name. It's a time for remembering the loved ones who have passed over, and to remember your own history and ancestors. Part of the celebration includes leaving out a meal and drink for those spirits, to tell them they haven't been forgotten - to show respect.

Now, what if a pagan says to everyone "Happy Day of the Dead - what are you doing for it?", chances are they'll get some pretty weird looks... and maybe even some terse words (and an ear-bashing).

The analogy is accurate - the difference is large.... why?

There are many people that get pissed off when someone wishes them a "Merry Christmas." Some of these people have the Anti-Christian stance that some people on this board share. Some of these people get offended over whatever they can feel offended about. But yet, they find it perfectly acceptable to partake in most, if not all, of the Christmas traditions. I call bullshit on that.

But.... some people are celebrating the end of the year. Some are pagan. What do they do? Not partake in celebrations because of the name used by someone else? Besides, if you are going to look at the pagan origins and compare them with the Christian tradition, the only thing the Christians do that isn't pagan is going to church to have mass/prayer! (and some carols). Presents were around for ages (mostly because, pre-calender, since they didn't know any dates to celebrate birthdays on, chose the Winter Solstice for everyone's birthday - another year alive, another year older).


So - be happy, celebrate... don't be ignorant (and remember, Christmas is only big cos of the culture you're in... and the commercialisation that has since hit the shops. This would be a very different argument if we were in Asia... where they don't celebrate Christmas - which is basically my point)