Pregnant Woman wins right to sue police that arrested her as she was in labor...

[RecoveringKinkoid]

Okay, I'll give you that one. Maybe they couldn't see her belly.

But did they not even entertain for a moment that maybe they ought to at least see if she was in real medical distress before forcibly and roughly taking her to the floor? Heart attack? Asthma? Diabetic shock?

She'd told them already that she was sick, so perhaps they could have offered to drive her to the ER themselves. But they didn't for whatever reason, and she sped off.

Okay, so I just watched the vid. She ran into the ER. They tackled her. But then, she's lying there, saying she's bleeding (which may or may not have been obvious), and at THAT point, she's lying on the floor being cuffed, I refuse to believe that they could not see that she was pregnant. They got her up. She is, at that point, easy to see and they can gauge her condition. She's got a pregnant belly. She's under control and they are leading her out. They can see her.

And yet they remove her from the ER.

Come the fuck on.

It took a nurse coming out and talking sense in to them to get them to release her.

They never even entertained for a moment the idea that she might, just might, be telling the truth and really need help. They willfully ignored that possibility, even to the point of risking her life and that of her child.

Wouldn't you be a a little wary, if you were cop, of the possibility of harming a pregnant woman? These cops are animals.

[Greenday]

She'd told them already that she was sick, so perhaps they could have offered to drive her to the ER themselves. But they didn't for whatever reason, and she sped off.

They never even entertained for a moment the idea that she might, just might, be telling the truth and really need help. They willfully ignored that possibility, even to the point of risking her life and that of her child.

Wouldn't you be a a little wary, if you were cop, of the possibility of harming a pregnant woman? These cops are animals.

Sounds like she didn't even give them that opportunity. Sounds like she just told them she was sick and sped off.

Hm, risk the life of a woman and her unborn child, or risk the lives of a bigger number of innocent bystanders, tough choice there.

When she has proven herself to be a danger to society? Hell no. Cops were doing there job and nothing else.

When someone poses a threat to the public and/or the officers, action MUST be taken to prevent the person from being able to harm ANYONE. Any cop will tell you this.

Should any jury find in favor of the plaintiff (which I'm certain they will because I think most people have a bias against cops as it is, bleeding hearts, etc.), it'll be a blow to the correctly functioning policing efforts. Cops will be forced to be more wary of using physical force against criminals which will increase the risks posed to themselves and society all because a bunch of bleeding hearts are going to sympathize with someone who blatantly posed a threat to society and was stopped by police using minimal force to prevent her from being able to pose a further risk.

[RecoveringKinkoid]

But the woman wasn't driving at the time she was arrested. So tackling her saved no lives. It didn't diminish any risk to anyone.

I could see it if they determined that her car was weaving, running lights, speeding, and they made an executive decision to force her off the road or something in order to lessen the risk to other motorists. But the article said she drove for about a minute at 40mph from the time she spoke to them to the time she got to the ER. She parked, got out and went inside. Traffic emergency OVER.

Once she's no longer behind the wheel, wouldn't the prudent thing to do be to follow her inside and find out what's going on? I mean, she could easily be simply arrested once inside. She was pretty much trapped in there, and there were two of them. She wasn't going anywhere.

The time to stop her from harming another driver was past. Using that sort of force on someone like that at that point was not going to accomplish anything useful.

[Greenday]

So the moment she stopped running from the police in a car, she stopped being a threat to the public? Was she still not running from them from the cops' point of view while she was on foot? Based on her reckless driving, she proved she was a threat and just because she was no longer in a vehicle doesn't change that she clearly has no problem endangering other people's lives. She was a threat up until the point she was tackled and handcuffed.

[Nyoibo]

Sounds like she didn't even give them that opportunity. Sounds like she just told them she was sick and sped off.

From the article, "Sirmons said that he was told by Williams that she was bleeding but not pregnant. He assumed that she was just trying to get out off a ticket."
And to follow on from that "Once officers knew she was in medical distress, probable cause for an arrest ceased, the court found."

Should any jury find in favor of the plaintiff (which I'm certain they will because I think most people have a bias against cops as it is, bleeding hearts, etc.), it'll be a blow to the correctly functioning policing efforts. Cops will be forced to be more wary of using physical force against criminals which will increase the risks posed to themselves and society all because a bunch of bleeding hearts are going to sympathize with someone who blatantly posed a threat to society and was stopped by police using minimal force to prevent her from being able to pose a further risk.

No, wrong, I'm wondering if you read both the articles?

From the articles.
"But the judges also said Williams cannot pursue a separate excessive force claim because the officers used reasonable force to make the arrest."

"Although we agree ... that the deputies' behavior was reprehensible, we disagree that the evidence supports a finding that the force was excessive."

She is suing for unlawful arrest, not excessive force, the reason she can do this is becase of this

"Under Florida law, necessity or duress is an affirmative defense to the crime of fleeing or eluding a police officer, as codified under Fla. Stat. § 316.1935. See Rowley v. State, 939 So. 2d 298, 300 (Fla. Ct. App. 2006). The elements of the defense are (1) the defendant reasonably believed that a danger or emergency existed that she did not intentionally cause; (2) the danger or emergency threatened significant harm to her or a third person; (3) the threatened harm was real, imminent, and impending; (4) the defendant had no reasonable means to avoid the danger or emergency except by committing the crime; (5) the crime was committed out of duress to avoid the danger or emergency; and (6) the harm the defendant avoided outweighs the harm caused by committing the crime. Driggers v. State, 917 So.2d 329, 331 (Fla. Ct. App. 2005).

In this case, the evidence taken in the light most favorable to Williams establishes that the deputies knew from their interview with her during the traffic stop that Williams was pregnant, bleeding, in distress, and on her way to the hospital for emergency treatment. The deputies, however, detained Williams in order to write a traffic citation. . . . A reasonable officer would have known, given this particular set of circumstances, that Williams’ flight from the traffic stop was justified by the affirmative defense of necessity or duress. For this reason, the deputies lacked arguable — much less actual — probable cause to arrest, even though the circumstances established that Williams met all elements of the offense of fleeing or eluding a police officer. The deputies, therefore, are not entitled to the defense of qualified immunity as a matter of law for Williams’ claim that the arrest was unsupported by probable cause and the district court properly denied summary judgment on this ground."

ps: to the mods, sorry I ended up quoting half the article, but it needs to be in it's whole to make sense.

[Kimmik]

As someone who has gone into premature labor screw the red light. I am sorry, normally I am all for people breaking the law getting their asses handed to them, but this is a medical emergency and every second counts. When I went into premature labor I was not even 6mo. If I hadnt been able to get to the hospital my son would have died at birth.

When that happens you are not thinking the best. I am sorry I know at the time I was not the most verbally capable during my experience. Once in the er there really was no reason for them to take her to the floor. Sure stay with her till her plight is proven, but to take her out of the ER was straight up bullshit.

She wasnt speeding or trying to evade, for heavens sake she did 40 to the er. I pray that this experience can be put behind her and I am thankful that her baby is alright.

These cops need common sense training.

[Mr Slugger]

See my take it that between the "I'm bleeding", her rushing to the hospital ER, and seeing her belly something had to set off a warning bell. I mean the "I'm bleeding" part I get the cops the benefit of the doubt that they thought she was just trying to get out of a ticket. And in some situations I would give the cops the benefit of the doubt of tackling a pregnant women and not knowing she was pregnant because they didn't see the stomach. But the combination of things.

I mean they did stop her. So there was the first chance to see her stomach. She said she was bleeding, and had she went anywhere else other than the hospital things might have been different, but she went to the hospital. And then while we don't see it every hospital that I've been into has the ER check in booth rather close to the front door, and chances are she got to it, because a nurse talked the cops into letting her go. So that means she got to tell a nurse something before she was handcuffed and hauled off. So the fact that she stopped in the ER might have been a good clue that she was in trouble. And then after the cops tackled her to the ground. Somewhere between that and getting her into the squad car they at some point didn't see the belly?

Now as far as race. I don't think it had anything to do with it. I think it's more the fact that some cops nowadays would rather lock you up rather than let you explain things. Because I had a buddy (who was white) a couple of years ago that was manhandled and dropped a couple of times and almost arrested because he "wouldn't get out of the car" at a sobriety check point. Of course it took the cops until they tried standing him up the second time before they realized that he was paralyzed from the waste down. You'd think that the car's plates, or the handicap set up in the driver's seat would have given them a clue, but nope.

[Flyndaran]

I say that everyone is to blame.
The woman for reckless driving that could have killed people, and of course the cops for tackling someone in likely physical distress.
It's not an either or situation.

[BroomJockey]

She was a threat up until the point she was tackled and handcuffed.

Uh, no. She was a threat up until the point they had her cornered. I like how you keep ignoring my point of why couldn't they simply have questioned her while being ready to take her down, instead of directly proceeding to taking her down.

Please, explain to me why tackling her was the only option. She'd at no point indicated she had a weapon beyond her vehicle, which she'd abandoned, and she'd gone to a point where further running would be difficult. Someone with 5 functioning brain cells should be able to use enough judgement that "claiming bleeding" + "rushing to hospital" + "stopping in ER" = "ascertain extent of actual situation."

I dunno about you, but I want my cops to actually fucking THINK with their BRAINS. Not with their DICKS. Because that's what this was. She dared to not stop, and she gave them "an excuse to get out of a ticket." They can't be having that challenge to their authority, can they? And again, in the same situation, but with a different person, what if they'd ended up killing the person, who was seriously injured? Would you still be defending them? We all know you're "rah rah cops!" because of your future profession, but "cops, right or wrong" isn't going to be an attitude to serve you well.

[RecoveringKinkoid]

So the moment she stopped running from the police in a car, she stopped being a threat to the public? Was she still not running from them from the cops' point of view while she was on foot?

How do you figure she was a threat? She wasn't armed. A black woman running does not constitute a threat. It wasn't like "Oh, my god, this woman is RUNNING! Stop her before she KILLS someone!"

Refusing to stop for cops is against the law, granted. But threatening? No. Walk in, jack her up against a wall, cuff her and read her the Miranda. There is no reason whatsoever to tackle her. That is swatting a fly with a anti aircraft gun. Especially when she MIGHT actually be sick, as she claimed earlier. I guess in their experience, it's not possible that a black woman might actually be telling the truth. It was all an elaborate ruse to get out of paying a ticket.

You could argue that by the very fact that she is driving a car she is a threat to the public. She wasn't using excess speed, she was going 40. And her only violation, according to this, is that she ran a light. No weaving, no excess speed, no otherwise impairment. One dangerous but isolated screw up.

By your argument, it would not have been excessive to shoot her in the head as she lay on the floor. After all, she's proven she's a public menace. She ran a light and then ran from the cops. She's no longer an immediate threat, but hey, she will be when she gets up, so let's waste her right here.

[LeChatNoir]

I think the cops acted in an excessive manner. Especially after viewing the video, I could tell she was pregnant. Obviously pregnant + "I'm bleeding" =/= arrest the woman as soon as she reaches the ER and drag her away from medical treatment.

I'm 7 months pregnant myself. About 2 months ago, I started bleeding at work. Thank goodness I worked with my husband at the time, and he was able to drive me to the ER. I've never felt so close to panic and despair...I can't imagine going through that and having to drive myself to the ER. I can imagine breaking a few traffic laws en route. Anything to get to help as soon as possible. In times like those, you are not thinking clearly. Luckily I was fine, baby was fine...but you never know.

[RecoveringKinkoid]

Not only that, but I can easily see her being afraid to trust the cops to do the right thing. Around here, it would not be unheard of for them to willfully pull a stunt like this.

In my town, they actually stopped a guy having a heart attack and instead of helping him as first responders, they let him sit in his car for at least 20 minutes so they could write a ticket, then told him, "go on and finish having your hear attack now." He survived, but barely. I personally got chewed out by a cop on night for making an illegal u turn. The reason I did it was because I was being stalked in a remote area by a carload of men, and I saw a cruiser. So I went after the cruiser. The bad guys sped off and the cop tried to cite me for making an illegal turn, even though I told him what happened.

So yeah. I totally can see someone in panic mode, especially a black woman dealing with white cops, deciding to take matters into her own hands and fleeing them. Totally see it. Might have done the same thing myself, depending on their demeanor.

[Greenday]

Nyoibo: No, didn't read the article, watched the video posted. Even then, I wasn't arguing with the article, I was arguing with everyone on here because they were talking about excessive force.

To everyone else since you all seem to be using the same logic: I could go on youtube and God knows how many videos I could find of people running red lights and causing accidents resulting in deaths. Running red lights recklessly puts the rest of the public in danger. Then you guys claim the cops should have taken her word for it that she was bleeding and going to the hospital. Because no one lies, right? So let me gets this straight, she puts other peoples' lives at risk, plus her own and her unborn child, she runs from the police...how is she not considered a threat until she is restrained. How else are you going to stop someone except tackling them when they are running? Throw a net on her? She did not give the police enough time to react and the only thing they did have to react to was the fact that she posed a threat to the public. That is the police's job. To protect the public.

RecoveringKinkoid, you say she wasn't armed. Yea, we know that now. The cops were supposed to just know this...how?

BroomJockey, she was never corned, she was tackle running into the room. She wasn't just standing there or anything, not moving. I am NOT cops rah rah as you seem to think. I've had only one pleasant experience with the police, every other time they were dickheads to me. My future profession doesn't involve forking for the cops. It involves working for the justice system to ascertain the truth, no matter which side it should fall on. It is based on complete impartiality. I am not there to help lock up the bad guys, only to determine and analyze the scientific evidence.

Look, I know the cops ended up being wrong in this situation. They had to make a split second judgment call and they erred on the side of caution to further protect the public. I'm not looking at it from only the end result as so many people seem to only be able to do. I'm looking at it step by step and trying to think as the cops did. If I was a cop, pulled someone over for running a red light, got the quick response of, "I'm sick" then they bailed on me, this turned into any regular car chase you'd see on TV. Catch them in their car? Drag them out. Catch them on foot running? Tackle them and restrain them so they can't continue their recklessness.

The ONLY thing they did wrong was once they restrained her, THEN they could have had a doctor look at her while they had her in control. But excessive force, as everyone here seems to be debating instead of the continued restraint of her, did not occur.

[Fryk]

Ok, the problem I have is that during the whole chase, according to the article, she was going about 40 mph. If they REALLY wanted to stop a serious threat to other motorists, why didn't they get ahead of her and force her over? Was something wrong with their car, that they couldn't drive fater? Hell, 40 mph is barely even a chase, more like just following someone.
She pulled up to the ER entrance, opened the car door, extricated herself from the car (which I have to believe, for a woman 7 months pregnant can NOT be easy) and ran into the ER. The cops couldn't catch up with her before that? At 40 mph, they should have been right on her tail, and there were two of them.
Anyway, she got out of her car, and THEN, THEN she was a seious enough threat to take down. What was it about her exiting the car that ramped up her appparent threat level? And I have to believe that there were traces of blood on the outside of her jeans for them to see.
In any case, it was an illegal take-down anyway, because under US law, as someone quoted form the article, she fled the scene under duress, because she and her child were in immediate danger from her medical emergency.

[RecoveringKinkoid]

RecoveringKinkoid, you say she wasn't armed. Yea, we know that now. The cops were supposed to just know this...how?

.

Because they had no reason to think it. They reacted as if they thought she was. They had a huge stack of evidence to give credence to her story, and not one shred that suggested she was armed. So they decided to go with the "she's armed" theory. No reason for it.

Personally, I don't want to live in a society where the cops are allowed to assume I'm armed regardess of any reason to think that, and are allowed to treat me with violence and possibly deadly force as a result of that.

By your logic, I should be dragged out a car, beaten, and possibly shot for dodging a pothole. Because I MIGHT be armed. I pull out a cell phone and a police sharpshooter should take me down becaue it MIGHT be a gun.

I get that you think that the cops had every right to suspect her. That's fine, maybe they did. I get that cops get jaded, and with good reason. My point is not that they were out of line to suspect her. My point is that using that level of violence on her was out of line. If you are a cop, and entrusted to carrying guns and tackling people, you need to also be able to make rudimentary judgement calls. These guys cannot do that.