Couple arrested for refusing to pay 18% tip

[Crazedclerkthe2nd]

http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/...052.html?yhp=1

My first thought was to throw this up on customers suck, but then I realized tipping is a hot button issue and it would be better discussed here.

Let me say that I believe (and have always believed) a tip should be reflective of the service provided.

I think it's wrong for restaurants to pay servers a pittance and expect tips to make up the the rest. It creates a circumstance whereby servers expect to be tipped just for doing their job, no matter how poorly they may do it.

I mean no disrespect to people who do that for a living, I just believe the tipping system is not set up as it should be.

I also think it's stupid these people were arrested for refusing to tip for that horrendous service. A restaurant who gives service that bad deserves to be punished by way of an awful tip or no tip. That sends a clear message to management IMO.

[kibbles]

I'd understand this story more if it was a couple who refused to pay the bill. A tip is for exceptional service and whether one likes it or not, it is up to the person's discretion whether they tip and how much.

IMO, I think this so called establishment should be run out of business and shut down. It would serve them right and it's what they deserve.

[jackfaire]

I think it should be illegal for places to include the tip as part of the bill. If you want your wait staff to be paid a tip then pay them more. If their service sucked I won't be paying them a tip.

I refuse to dine at places that have a mandatory tip. I choose to pay the tip that is my choice not some hidden charge you get to foist off on me because your too cheap to pay them properly.

[tabbyblack13]

I agree that tipping should be only for when you have good service. I never liked it when tip is expected. I can only see it applying to very large groups that would require the majority of the waiter's time and not allowing him or her the time to serve other tables.

[gremcint]

This was also linked on CS with a different article:
http://www.philly.com/philly/news/br...aying_tip.html

Now there were a total of 8 people in this party but only two of them got arrested? Though 73 at a bar for 8 people is really unlikely so I'm guessing there were separate bills and therefore the others must have paid the required tip on their bill.

I agree, a tip is an optional payment, usually to be understood to be for the service and they did not receive that service. after 45 minutes of no attention and no food I would have just left after paying for my drink.

One thing I really need to point out, they keep saying 16 for the tip, and that it was 18% and the original bill was 73.

73 * .18 = 13.14 not 16.35 or 16
in fact 16 would be a 22% percent tip so someone is getting their numbers wrong somewhere.

Now as for it being on the menu that to me means nothing without actually seeing the menu for the specific wording and the size of it also. However no matter what the wording or whatever is doesn't matter as they didn't get what they were being asked to pay for.

[Anthony K. S.]

I said this on Customers Suck!, and I will say it here, too.

The standard argument that many people will make in support of the two students is "Tipping is ALWAYS optional."

No. In this case, it is not.

The menu clearly states, "18 percent gratuity added to check of parties of 6 of more," and a similar message is printed on receipts, a pub employee said this morning.

When you choose to patronize a business, you agree to abide by the business's rules. You don't get to pick and choose which rules you're going to follow, and which ones you're not.

If these students had a problem with an automatic 18% gratuity being placed on their check, they should have gone somewhere else.

Did they not realize that they would be required to pay the gratuity? Then they should have asked. Not knowing what the rules are is not a defense to breaking the rules.

As it is, they agreed to pay that 18% when they chose to sit down to eat.

I refuse to dine at places that have a mandatory tip.

That's what they should have done.

But they didn't.

after 45 minutes of no attention and no food I would have just left after paying for my drink.

Again . . . That's what they should have done.

But they didn't.

they didn't get what they were being asked to pay for

That's your opinion.

And, in fact, I agree.

They didn't get what they were being expected to pay for.

Problem is . . . Your opinion, and mine, and everybody else's here . . . Our opinions do not carry the force of law.

It's a weak position, to be sure, but some would argue that as long as they did eventually get their food, the minimum requirements of service were fulfilled. And, hence, they were expected to pay for it.

A very weak argument, yes . . . But it's there. And again, opinions don't carry the force of law.

They agreed to the restaurant's terms when they chose to eat there. They don't get to change the terms afterward just because they think they should be able to.

[blas87]

I am in total favor of gratuity for large parties.

Truth be told, larger parties can be a hassle, sometimes a server has to focus only on that large party instead of several smaller ones (unless you are a veteran server and can handle anything anyone throws at you, which I never was), and if it's a loud obnoxious bunch who won't tip well for taking up all that time and effort, then that server is fucked for that period of time.

Not every large party is always a bunch of animals, that's not what I truly meant, it's just that they can be a detriment if they get a server that has to focus only on them and they are the type like my uncles who only tip $1 no matter how high the bill.

[jackfaire]

I am sorry I still think it should be illegal you want it on the menu then raise the price of the food. Or don't call it tipping call it a mandatory service fee. Tipping is an option gratuity given for good service and once it's mandatory to the point your being arrested over it then your no longer tipping your paying.

[Anthony K. S.]

I still think it should be illegal

Well, it's not.

Write a letter to your Senator or Representative in Congress, or to whoever represents you in your state legislature or city council . . . But, for the time being, the law is what it is.

Even if I agreed with you that it should be illegal . . . That doesn't have anything to do with this case.

Or don't call it tipping call it a mandatory service fee. Tipping is an option gratuity given for good service and once it's mandatory to the point your being arrested over it then your no longer tipping your paying.

Please forgive me for repeating myself, but I keep going back to this :

If these folks had a problem with the automatic 18% gratuity, they shouldn't have patronized that restaurant in the first place.

If they viewed the matter the same way that you do, jackfaire, that it shouldn't be called "tipping" unless it's optional, and if they felt strongly enough about that . . . They should have gone somewhere else.

They could have done that. They had that right.

What they did not have the right to do is patronize that restaurant and then decide that they weren't going to follow the restaurant's rules because they didn't like them or didn't agree with them.

It doesn't work that way.

[jackfaire]

Does anyone know how prominent the notice that tipping was mandatory was? I have been to places where it is almost hidden and would come as a shock to most people.

[Nyoibo]

Does anyone know how prominent the notice that tipping was mandatory was? I have been to places where it is almost hidden and would come as a shock to most people

And in cases like that, if it's not clearly shown, then the customer is within their legal rights to refuse to pay it.

Yup, I looked it up.

[Mr Slugger]

I'm kind of surprised it hasn't been mentioned yet. The bar's response was that they tried comp them the food. Of course the couple said that never happened. To me that says this bar is shady, because if you did attempt to comp them the food, and they refused and decided to pay for everything, but the tip then if I was the manager I would have excepted that. Unless the only food they bought was an order of onion rings or something, but even then. Because I know for me if I go to a restaurant if the food is bad I'll complain , and if they comp it I'll except the comp. If the waitress sucked, but the food is good I'd always pay for the food even if I complain. I just won't leave a tip.

But in this case if you go by the bar's side. They complained, the bar offered free food, the customer refused the free food, but didn't pay the tip. So they called the cops because they didn't pay the tip. Instead of going ok I didn't pay for free food, so if I have to pay the employee the 18% tip then I'll do it out of the money that I didn't have to pay for the comped food.

So to me i believe it went exactly how the customer's said it did. They complained, the bar said oh well. So they refused to pay the tip instead. Bar was an ass called the cops. Couple got arrested.

[Boozy]

And in cases like that, if it's not clearly shown, then the customer is within their legal rights to refuse to pay it.

Yup, I looked it up.

Did you look it up online? If so, could you post the link for us?

[Nyoibo]

Did you look it up online? If so, could you post the link for us?

Damn it, I knew I should have saved the link, ok, after class tomorrow I'll look for it.

[Slytovhand]

Hmm - firstly, what's the legal definition of the word 'gratuity'? If it means 'non-obiligatory', no legs to stand on! (I doubt that is the case, but anyway).

Secondly, if the management really did offer to comp the food, they have waived their right to expect any sort of payment, and thus, the $73 can be considered a 100% gratuity!

As one of the more famous non-tippers on the planet (Australian), I don't see any reason to use the term 'gratuity' in such a context. 'Service Charge' or some such similar. Tips are for quality! (of course, in Oz, we have sane pay structures, so tips are actually given as a sign of quality!)