Crying wolf: claims of disadvantage

[Seshat]

Another one inspired by the main board. As some of you will have noticed, I meet three of the four main types of disadvantage: I'm a disabled woman who was raised near the poverty line.

Anyway, I was thinking of the 'race' card and the 'disabled' card and so on, and thought I'd ask: when do people think it appropriate, or inappropriate, to claim disadvantage? And what do you think to be fair and reasonable allowance to make for the various types of disadvantage?

I'd like to see what a few people say before I write my own opinion. (I think you've all noticed that I can be very opinionated, by now!)

[Greenday]

I consider it inappropriate when it's used and it doesn't even apply. For example:

"Can I get this 1/2 off?"
"No. It's already 1/3 off."
"Racist!"

Something like that. But if the conversation was like this:

"Can you show me where the soup is?"
"No you black/white/aquamarine fool, go play in traffic."

That'd be a good time to pull the race card out.

[AFPheonix]

Pretty much. If reasonable accommodations are made, then that's great. When people try to use their status as poor/minority/disabled/blah to cheat the system and get MORE than their fair share of whatever, then that's no longer ok. The point is to make everyone equal, not to make some people more equal, if that makes sense.
For example, I had one old coot come through the drive-through a year or so back and wanted to return some freaking hair color through the pharmacy, grumping that he was disabled. He overstepped the boundaries of the concessions for his disability since the store made accommodations by being handicapped-accessible for him to come inside and make the return in the correct place, and not hold up the legions of sick people who just wanted to pick up their medications.

[Seshat]

As some of you know, I use a wheelchair as a mobility aid.

I've seen quite a few situations like this one, at a zoo:
There was a nice, smooth concrete path (with stairs) for the able-bodied to walk up, and a nice concrete ramp for the wheelchair users. But to get to the base of the wheelchair ramp from the entrance to the zoo, you have to go off the concrete path onto a sandy area, wheel past the full length of the ramp, turn around, and then you can go up the ramp.
Sand is VERY difficult to push a wheelchair through.

I did make a complaint. I tried to make it nicely, but I feel I was justified.

I've seen many, many handicapped toilets where it was obvious that noone had tried pushing themselves in while in a wheelchair, then transferring from the wheelchair to the loo and back. And there's practically no room to turn around in them. The rooms are just too small, and I'm VERY glad I'm not actually paralysed.

And I've tried to get through 'wheelchair access' doors where there's barely room for the wheelchair, and no room for my arms (and what do you push a wheelchair with? your ARMS!)

Don't get me wrong, I'm very grateful that handicapped toilets and ramps and doors with no step exist! I just wish that the architects and engineers who designed these things would actually borrow a wheelchair and do a dry run to see how possible it is to use them.

I know it's not discrimination that I (and other wheelchair users) have these problems. But it is disadvantage.

Am I justified in (politely) registering these problems and related ones to the appropriate people?

[AFPheonix]

I would say so, because the facility has not actually made themselves handicap accessible if they're not truly, well, accessible.

[Boozy]

I would say so, because the facility has not actually made themselves handicap accessible if they're not truly, well, accessible.

And these places may be getting the tax breaks that go along with being "accessible" (at least that's how it works in Canada). They need to keep their end of the bargain.

[XCashier]

There was a nice, smooth concrete path (with stairs) for the able-bodied to walk up, and a nice concrete ramp for the wheelchair users. But to get to the base of the wheelchair ramp from the entrance to the zoo, you have to go off the concrete path onto a sandy area, wheel past the full length of the ramp, turn around, and then you can go up the ramp.
Sand is VERY difficult to push a wheelchair through.

Who the hell thought up that idea? I'm not in a wheelchair, have never had to use one, and even I can see that's a blatantly stupid design!

Don't get me wrong, I'm very grateful that handicapped toilets and ramps and doors with no step exist! I just wish that the architects and engineers who designed these things would actually borrow a wheelchair and do a dry run to see how possible it is to use them.

You're absolutely right, they should, or hire someone in a wheelchair to test it for them. It would prevent a lot of problems to make sure it's designed correctly at the start.

[Seshat]

Who the hell thought up that idea? I'm not in a wheelchair, have never had to use one, and even I can see that's a blatantly stupid design!

Thank you! I thought it had to be obvious even to the able-bodied.

You're absolutely right, they should, or hire someone in a wheelchair to test it for them. It would prevent a lot of problems to make sure it's designed correctly at the start.

I think the able-bodied architects and engineers who design these things should do the dry run themselves. They'll understand it better if they do. Watching someone else go through something isn't at all like doing it yourself.

BTW: all of you customer service people in malls, if you want to help eliminate this sort of disadvantage, pick a slow day and borrow a mall wheelchair.
Go through your store in the wheelchair. Try to shop, try to use the pinpad, try to use the dressing rooms. (For the dressing rooms, you can assume you're like me - you can walk a few steps, can use your legs for short periods of time, but not for long ones.)

A couple of ideas that immediately (for me) spring to mind: get a clipboard you can keep under the counter and pass over to wheelchair-bound customers who need to sign their credit card slips. Talk to corporate about getting longer cables for your pinpad machines. Try to see that your aisles are wide enough - or that, like some of the clothing stores I go to, the fixtures are moveable.
Dressing rooms are a more expensive problem to solve, but for those who are not wheelchair bound, look around your store and figure out where you could keep a wheelchair so you could watch it for the customer while they try stuff on, or lock it safely away until they're finished. (Bear in mind that they'll probably be slower to try stuff on that your normal customer.)
(Also bear in mind that wheelchairs are bloody expensive - you may have liability issues.)

Hm. And again, if you think I'm being unreasonable, please, PLEASE tell me.

[powerboy]

I consider it inappropriate when it's used and it doesn't even apply. For example:

"Can I get this 1/2 off?"
"No. It's already 1/3 off."
"Racist!"

Something like that. But if the conversation was like this:

"Can you show me where the soup is?"
"No you black/white/aquamarine fool, go play in traffic."

That'd be a good time to pull the race card out.

I couldn't have said it better myself

[ThePhoneGoddess]

I've seen quite a few situations like this one, at a zoo:
There was a nice, smooth concrete path (with stairs) for the able-bodied to walk up, and a nice concrete ramp for the wheelchair users. But to get to the base of the wheelchair ramp from the entrance to the zoo, you have to go off the concrete path onto a sandy area, wheel past the full length of the ramp, turn around, and then you can go up the ramp.

How old is the zoo?

Many places had to be retro-fitted for handicapped access when the laws in their country began to require it. The college I went to is a great example. It was built in the early sixties, before the Americans With Disabilities Act, and it was designed #1) artistically, #2) on the side of a mountain, and #3) in the Santa Fe adobe style. It looks really cool, but almost every building has two or 3 steps up or down just inside each entrance. Some of the buildings are built with the first floor halfway in the basement---when you walk in, you are confronted by two small sets of stairs, one going up to the second floor and one going down to the first floor.

They fitted as many buildings as they could for handicapped access, but it had to be done very creatively---some of the ramps are in weird places, and have to wrap around corners and stuff just to deal with three small steps. Several of the buildings simply cannot be made accessible. When the school has a handicapped student, they simply have to make sure none of his/her classes are in any of these buildings.

Anyway, I'm wondering if maybe the zoo was built before it was required, and they had to retrofit themselves. That might be why it's done so weird.

The other thing I'd like to mention is the recent trend here, in the states, for traditionally liberal arts colleges to offer engineering programs. All these things are built by engineers, and engineering is basically science in service to society. The trend in our schools is seen as driven partly by changes in accreditation standards in recent years that recognized the need for more well-rounded engineering students who can better understand the communities in which they work.

[Seshat]

How old is the zoo?

Quite recent, and there's absolutely no reason the wheelchair ramp couldn't be pointed the other way - there's even room for two ramps, one each way. The sandy area is really large, too, so even if they concreted the way to the ramp, there'd still be plenty of aesthetic sand.

The other thing I'd like to mention is the recent trend here, in the states, for traditionally liberal arts colleges to offer engineering programs. All these things are built by engineers, and engineering is basically science in service to society. The trend in our schools is seen as driven partly by changes in accreditation standards in recent years that recognized the need for more well-rounded engineering students who can better understand the communities in which they work.

Which is why I'd like to see engineering students put in wheelchairs and asked to use a mockup of the minimum-required-by-law standards for wheelchair accessibility. Engineers are human, and won't necessarily understand until they're shown.

Actually, it'd be nifty to have engineering and architecture students spend a week in wheelchairs at their university. Just the on-campus stuff would help them understand.