The "Underwear Bomber"...and yet more security checks

[Skunkle]

And ignore Al Quaida claiming responsibility. Just as terrorists will hunt and hunt and hunt for a loophole, groups like Al Quaida will be happy to claim they were directing this or that random nutjob, just to make themselves look good. Not to say that this guy wasn't a terrorist, but I think he was probably just inspired by, niot directed by - and may have, like the "shoe bomber", just been a nutjob. Or, perhaps, as he's described as having a wealthy, well-educated upbringing, he just got sick of all the rich-family rules and decided to do something wild?

Related but slightly-OT rant: I'm ignoring any anti-Obama-admin backlash this brings. First off, he's just walked into a posityion leading a country that's been spiralling downhill for a good number of years - it's not gonna take him less than one year in office to work miracles. Quit harping on him. Second off, Congress is too busy infighting to actually work with him. Quit harping on him. Per a recent political cartoon, showing Obama standing in a huge pit, and a Congressional Republican calling down at him "Quit dithering in that big hole we dug for you!" If you can't quit despite all this, just accept that youi'll never want him to be 'your' President and say that. Just say it. "I don't want Obama to be my President". There, quit all the beating around the bush and making up reasons and say it. Same to you, "Birthers" - just say outright that, no matter what, you need to find a reason for him to not be your president.

[KitterCat]

What bugs me about the whole thing is that even with these security checks, these assholes still manage to get around it. It's like they are searching for any hole they can in our security so they can kill peoplle.

Because that’s exactly what they do. We will never have a perfectly secure security check*. Its simply not possible. People are far more inventive when given enough incentive to figure ways around them. And when their crazy or think their doing it for their “god”, their more inclined to act out on them.

The public response to such actions is what you need to watch out for. Pre 9/11 it made sense to sit still, follow the flight jackers orders and wait for your country to rescue/pay off/negotiate for your release. Now that we’ve actually had an attack where citizens died, we’re much more likely to fight back. Look at this guy, it wasn’t security who stopped him, it was the people around him.


*Of course when TSA ignores security measures already in place it makes it that much easier. Lets see this guy pays for his ticket in cash (nearly $3000), Didn’t bring on any luggage - your going from Nigeria to America and you don’t need cloths? In November the father went to the US Embassy in Abuja, the Nigerian capital, to warn that his son was being radicalized in Yemen. But it was deemed that their wasn't enough information to put him on a No-fly list or revoke his visa. Great Britain can revoke his UK visa after lying on an application, but we’re not seeing a problem when Dad says his son has taken a flying leap off the coockoos nest. Stuff like that should have sent warning buzzers off, but nothing happened.

[jackfaire]

Great Britain can revoke his UK visa after lying on an application, but we’re not seeing a problem when Dad says his son has taken a flying leap off the coockoos nest. Stuff like that should have sent warning buzzers off, but nothing happened.

Not necessarily if it was that easy how many vindictive family members would get someone put on the no fly list.

[Slytovhand]

WARNING: CONSPIRACY-THEORY NUTTER POSTING


Maybe he was supposed to get on board... and the explosives weren't supposed to go off......


Just thinking.

Look what happens when these scares happen. Your government issues more laws, stretches out its reach, and invests millions or billions of dollars to some company (that has connections with some politician in power)... and people are 'ok' with that. Sure, some bitch and moan, but in the end???

So, what does government and big corporations want? Isn't it more control and more money?

[Rageaholic]

Has anyone heard of how the problem is being handled? From what I understand, passengers will not be able to use the restroom an hour before landing. Nor will they be allowed to have blankets on their laps. Sorry, but if you have to go, you have to go. Are they then going to bitch when people piss (or worse!) on the floor?

I don't get the bathroom thing. Why an hour before the flight lands? They might as well just not allow passengers to go to the bathroom at all and we all know that wouldn't work very well. That sounds like excessive security meassures to me.

And flying used to be so fun too.

[Fashion Lad!]

Since this incident on Christmas, there have been calls to install more "whole body scanners." As always, there are those who say "No!! It's no more than a virtual strip search and an invasion of privacy!" How "violated" would these same people feel if someone they knew or loved died in an explosion that could presumably have been prevented by using these devices?

Apparently, there are roughly 28,000 commercial flights a day in the US... 10,220,000 a year. The odds are, the plane you are going to get on is not going to be under a terrorist attack. So, no... I'm not all for a whole body scanner just to board a plane. That does seem a bit invasive to me. Even if there are 5 a year... so... roughly .00005% of flights in the US would have been hit. So, we could, in my opinion, violate the privacy of millions of people (in a very real way, you can see people's junk with that scanner!) just to prevent that terrorist attack that will more than likely not occur. 2+2=5, eh?

[jackfaire]

That does seem a bit invasive to me. Even if there are 5 a year... so... roughly .00005% of flights in the US would have been hit.

Nope 2+2 = 4. By the logic that such things rarely happen we should never take precautions for anything because in most cases the chances of it actually happening are slim to none.

However when it does happen everyone will be furious nothing was done to prevent it.

[Fashion Lad!]

Nope 2+2 = 4. By the logic that such things rarely happen we should never take precautions for anything because in most cases the chances of it actually happening are slim to none.

However when it does happen everyone will be furious nothing was done to prevent it.

There's prevention and there's excuses to be more invasive. Reasonable measures should always be taken. I do not find body scanners to be reasonable... http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_6Jg28bvpOz...canner_img.jpg

[jackfaire]

There's prevention and there's excuses to be more invasive. Reasonable measures should always be taken. I do not find body scanners to be reasonable..

And some people don't find being forced to wear a seatbelt to be reasonable.

[Greenday]

There's prevention and there's excuses to be more invasive. Reasonable measures should always be taken. I do not find body scanners to be reasonable... http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_6Jg28bvpOz...canner_img.jpg

So how else should we check for explosives that aren't made with metal?

[MadMike]

And some people don't find being forced to wear a seatbelt to be reasonable.

(Raises hand)

Don't get me wrong, I wear mine, but I do it because I believe it makes me safer, not because of any laws designed to protect me from myself. But that's a topic for another thread.

[KitterCat]

So how else should we check for explosives that aren't made with metal?

5 minutes on the web and I found this,

Remove the water from potassium cyanide and a molar equivalent of a dry carboxylic acid? Just add water in the first class bathroom, and LOTS of hydrogen cyanide gas will evolve.

Thermit = aluminum and iron oxide. You still need to mix and light the stuff. About the only way to detect it is through a “sniffer/puffer machine*, or a dog. Both ingredients are legal, there are legitimate uses for both.

H2O2 (hydrogen peroxide, but not kind you get at the
pharmacy), H2SO4 (sulfuric acid, of necessity very concentrated for it
to work at all), and acetone (known to people worldwide as nail polish
remover), to make acetone peroxides. Mix together and you’ve got a pretty potent gizmo. This stuff is very unstable, a good whack and its possible for it to go off. Problem is it also has a habit of eating through containers and you’d still need more than the 3oz bottles allowed on flights for it to do any real harm. Pretty much you just need Security to learn to smell for nail polish remover to catch anyone bringing it on board.

Oh and its pretty easy to buy this stuff, look up eBay. If they don’t have it one of their adverts does. We don’t need a machine that’s going to take an x-ray of you every time you fly. This guy needed to be on a Watch list (which we have) and actually have it used. A person on the board mentioned that a family member may have been trying to screw with him by reporting him the embassy. Well after you’ve had 2 warning signals with him paying for the ticket in cash and not carrying any luggage, its an easy fix. Take him out of line and do a more involved pat down. Talk to him for a little bit about his actions, what’s he been up to lately? We’ve got info on you going to Yemon, and known terrorist hot spot, what were you doing there? If they can stop you from boarding a plane with a can of coke then I don’t see how hard it can be for them to stop you when they’ve got information saying you’re a threat.

Pretty much the answer to your question is this. Use some conman sense when dealing with security. Giving away all of your freedoms for a false sense of security does not make you anymore free or safe. We need people using conman sense. All of life’s contingencies cant be written up in a manual so that all you have to do is follow protocol. Sometimes a few brain cells have to rub together and work.

http://www.cleveland.com/nation/inde...ore_secur.html
*One is a puffer machine that blows air onto passengers and then analyzes the residues. The TSA reportedly spent about $30 million on 207 of the machines in 2004 but only deployed 94 of them. The TSA announced this fall it was scrapping the program because the machines were prone to breaking down, too easily foiled by dirt and humidity, and had cost $6 million to maintain since 2005.

[Greenday]

What right are you giving up by going through an x-ray machine?

[Lace Neil Singer]

The right to privacy, maybe? Would you be backing the security measures if someone suddenly decided that all passengers had to strip naked before being allowed on board, or perhaps had to endure a cavity search? Take a look at the link Fashion Boy! posted. The scanner strips away all privacy; and, as we have already seen, terrorists will try to find a way around it.

I will also make the statement that the tube was bombed 7/7, yet no extra security measures have been put in place there. And guess what, there hasn't been another attack since; and people are still using the tube. True, some other nutzo group might try and bomb it, but taking away people's rights to dignity and privacy won't stop these people. Hell, these people don't even care if they die in the process, as long as they take some of us evil Western citizens with them.

[KitterCat]

What right are you giving up by going through an x-ray machine?

United States Constitution-4th amendment
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Our rights under the 4th amendment have become so swish cheesed that yes, that document may be a lawyers joke at this point, but there are still some shreds hanging on. You tell me why I have to be blasted by x-rays -things that doctors don’t want you to have to many of due to ramifications of x-ray poising- when there are other methods already employed that are less of a privacy issue.