Has "No Child Left Behind" led to dumber kids?

[Crazedclerkthe2nd]

I touched on this point in a thread on CS but I wanted to explore it more here where I can speak more freely.

I HATE NCLB with a passion and I also hate the gutless educators and school administrators who support ABOLISHING F grades because it's too emotionally impacting on the students for them fail a class.

School today is becoming this nice little place completely insulated and isolated from the real world. Due to things like NCLB and other crap that goes on in education (parents taking it too far with teachers or getting too involved with their kids education or teacher/administration issues etc.) it's practically impossible to fail school. You can't get "fired" you can't lose, no matter what happens you can still squeak by.

THIS IS WRONG.

In the real world you CAN get fired, you CAN lose and you CAN fail and it will be much harder to handle for someone who has never faced such circumstances before. I said in the thread on CS I failed three classes in high school and I had to make two up (one in summer school, one in night school). Did I like it? No, but it provided me a valuable lesson and helped me understand the consequences of failure.

Another issue with NCLB is that, in order to make it easier on themselves, school boards are LOWERING the grading standards so more kids can pass and thus the question in the thread title becomes relevant.

We talked on CS about how a lot o f high school kids don't know extremely basic stuff like who Adolf Hitler was (the terrible Nazi dictator that started WWII), or important dates like when Hiroshima was bombed (August 6, 1945) or the Pearl Harbor attack (Dec. 7, 1941). Heck I still remember some of my grade 11 studies on ancient mesopotamia!

But this leads me to another point. Is the prevalence of Google and Wikipedia giving kids the impression they don't really have to know much off hand because it's always easy to just look it up and find whatever you need?

The convenience of Google and Wikipedia is nice, but these resources are no substitute for a real education and intellect.

So I am forced to ask: How do we fix this growing problem?

[jackfaire]

I agree lowering grading standards and wiping out the ability to fail is always bad but I do have a couple of points.

1) Learning the dates is important knowing them off hand is not. Many adults do not. The important thing is to know these events happened. The dates can be looked up if that detail becomes relevant.

2) Researching information is an education. Your not handing your research paper to Google and saying here write this. Whether it is an Encyclopedia or any other source of information.

[AdminAssistant]

Google/Wikipedia are not reliable sources of information. Books, newspapers*, and peer-reviewed journals are the best sources. That's my issue, people use random webpages, Yahoo, Ask.com, etc. without questioning the validity of their source. An encyclopedia article is a starting point at best.

As far as dates are concerned, I'm less picky. Years are important (WW II lasted from roughly 1939-1945, Romanticism hit France in 1830, etc.) Eras are also important, but the most important thing is context. Knowing what caused an event to happen is more important than pinning down an exact day. And, usually, if you can trace all the stuff that leads up to an event, you can usually tell when it happened, at least within the right decade.

* Newspapers are largely used for "this thing happened on this date" type research. Trust me, I know all about editorial bias.

[jackfaire]

In my mind what makes a source reliable is that the data is confirmable by independent sources. No source in and of itself is reliable if the data is not verifiable.

[Cassandra]

As someone who has worked in the HR department and now work in the registration department of a public school district, let me tell you that NCLB looks good on paper but needs work in practice.

The whole idea behind NCLB was to help the education system in America by allowing better education of the population. What has happened is a total breakdown of the system.

The teachers that I have talked with have all said the same thing. "My hands are tied by NCLB and all the criterion that I have to meet for it." These teachers are not able to actually teach because they are forced by the administration wanting to follow NCLB to prepare the students for all these standarized tests.

In New Jersey we have so many tests these kids have to take every year. I remember being a student and we had one standarized test once a year in elementary school and one in 10th grade. Now they have at least two or three a year every year. There is no time to teach these children the essentials for being a productive, intelligent member of society.

I see some interesting people when registering children for my town. The saddest part is that these children are coming in with the idea in their minds that they are going to get a decent education, but in reality all they are being taught is how to take a test.

[protege]

So I am forced to ask: How do we fix this growing problem?

Simple, we quit coddling stupid and lazy people. Why should the rest of us have to suffer...because some idiot (and I'm being nice here) can't understand simple concepts? Instead of saying "you need to work on your (insert subject here) skills," too many people think that will hurt their kids in the long run. Instead, they insist to ignore failures, and pass the kid anyway. Never mind *that* does more harm than good...

All too often, you get people who want to "sterilize" the world. That is, that nothing "bad" can happen to their children, no matter how badly the kid fucks up. Sorry, but the "real world" isn't like that. You screw up, you get fired, or into trouble. Sure, these kids may have an easier education. However, is it worth destroying their futures because the real world isn't as tolerant of failure? Somehow, I doubt it.

[joe hx]

I think NCLB is a classic example of why the US Federal Government needs to stay out of education. Any way the federal government tries to help education will end up being a "one size fits all" solution.

I also think that every child needs to fail at something. This "failure" could be artificial, but everyone needs to deal with failure.

[Cats]

I see some interesting people when registering children for my town. The saddest part is that these children are coming in with the idea in their minds that they are going to get a decent education, but in reality all they are being taught is how to take a test.

This. In Mass, the stupid MCAS test in my town changed the cirriculum entirely, JUST to make it so kids could pass it. I was the last group to not need to pass it in order to graduate, but we still took it. The test is a JOKE (or at least it was when I took it, it hopefully has been changed since then). According to the results of more than one year, I was only slightly better at Math than I was at English, and weakest on Science, when in fact, science was always my best subject throughout school. And it wasn't the science essays that killed me or anything either, I have more than once been priased by teachers on my science essays on tests. That's messed up.


I believe every child should be given an equal opportunity for a decent education, but passing them and letting them coast is not going to help anyone, and is just a massive slap in the face to those who DO try hard and work for it. Life isn't fair, and there are going to be some people who are smart, and some people who are not. Not everyone has the metal capacity to earn a diploma, sad, but true. I've known kids who've slacked off all semester, and be allowed to make up the work in the last week with no penalty (and they are NOT the people who are just slow learners and thus who may legitly need more time to learn the material).


I think I may have mentioned in in another thread before, but in my town, a few months ago there was an article in the paper about one child. Apparently, somehow without his mother's knowledge, the kid had failed 7th grade, but was still promoted to 8th (it is not said if she was just not paying attention enough to his grades, or if the school/teachers failed to try to notify her of the problem. I'm banking on the former, but blame goes to the latter as well). But it gets even better....the kid also failed 8th grade, but was still promoted the High School. When questioned about it, someone on the school board mentioned he was very tall for his age and a large kid overall, and that because of that, he "did not belong" in middle school. That is one of the biggest loads of bullcrap I have ever heard. I did not grow at all between the ages of 5 and 8, and thus was noticable shorter than my peers growing up. By their argument, I should have still been back in kindergarden when I was on my way to 3rd grade.

So here, it's not that teachers are afraid to give F's out, it's that doing so doesn't actually prevent them from holding someone back. All they do is just make it someone else's problem. I know they cannot cater to every individual child's needs (there aren't enough teachers or hours in the day), but crap like that should not happen.

[Greenday]

In New Jersey we have so many tests these kids have to take every year. I remember being a student and we had one standarized test once a year in elementary school and one in 10th grade. Now they have at least two or three a year every year. There is no time to teach these children the essentials for being a productive, intelligent member of society.

EVERY single year. Every year we had to take the Iowa's. (I think they later switched to the Terrinova's or something like that) In fourth or fifth grade, we had to take some other standardized test too. 8th grade we had the GEPAs (Grade Eight Proficiency Assessment), HSPAs in high school (High School Proficiency Assessment). It never ends!

[Vagabond]

*thinks hard* [slaps on massive amount of sarcasm]
"A's for everyone! 4.0's all the way around! You can go to Harvard or Yale or Princeton (if your parents have the $$$), and then you can grow up and become President, just like George W. ...oh, wait..." [/sarcasm]
[serious]
There are things I'm good at, things I'm decent at, and things I'm not good at. I only learned the differences by failing at things. If I hadn't failed or taught that I'm not good at certain things - I would be blaming someone else for me not being the best at whatever thing I was trying. But since I learned that I won't always be the best, I can cope with that. Heck, I learned that when I was young. My mom can be watching tv, cooking, cleaning house, taking care of a baby and talking with someone, and still beat me hands down at chess, from next door! And knows when I'm cheating at it too, and I still lose!!! I don't play chess anymore. I learned by failing.
And... don't most humans learn more by failing? How else do you learn that the ground is hard, the stove is hot, and don't stick you tongue on a metal pole in freezing weather?

[KitterCat]

I HATE NCLB with a passion and I also hate the gutless educators and school administrators who support ABOLISHING F grades because it's too emotionally impacting on the students for them fail a class.

Another issue with NCLB is that, in order to make it easier on themselves, school boards are LOWERING the grading standards so more kids can pass and thus the question in the thread title becomes relevant.

NCLB was the federal governments attempt to standardizes teaching across the country in order for every child to be able to receive a good education. Unfortunately due to different state laws, school boards, teachers unions, overly protective parents the system is screwed. Just remember before NCLB there were state tests that were suppose to guarantee the same thing. It didn’t work then, and the federal systems not going to work now in large part due to the same problems that the state tests ran into. I cant really fault the program because it does in fact look good on paper. Children should already be being taught what the tests are asking for. If the teachers were teaching a curriculum that was any good they should be able to hand the kids a test and not worry about if they are going to pass or not.

The problem is more about the other factors that causing the problems in education. School boards shouldn’t be allowed to lower the grading standard so that they can say their performing at acceptable standards. Teachers who are incapable of teaching should be fired instead of hiding behind the legal hell of a teachers union. Parents need to grow thicker skins and understand their snowflake may not be the type of “special” that they want. Not all kids are up to becoming Doctors, or engineers ect. Some kids are more adapt at becoming plumbers, carpenters or even burger flippers. If they cant make the grade they shouldn’t be moved up.

[Vagabond]

Anyone who's worked for a Corporation or the Government, or who's worked at all, knows that things that look good on paper don't always work in the real world.
So, whether or not the NCLB program looks good on paper, if it doesn't work in the real world - either scrap it altogether, or figure out what is wrong with it and fix it - without another 'paper' fix - figure out what will work in the real world and fix it there. No?

[fireheart17]

This really does bite unfortunately (from what I can see). we don't have something like this in Australia from what I know. In our case it's more like "help those kids to finish, maybe lower their standards a little bit, but if they're still struggling, they get left behind a year."

Unfortunately, overprotective parents who think their child can't do any wrong will always screw up anything.

[Lace Neil Singer]

The British school system doesn't have NCLB, at least, not officially; but GCSEs have certainly been dumbed down so that more kids can pass them. Apparently, the D I got in GCSE maths would, by todays standards, be an A; and that's bad. Also, colleges can't just take the pick of the bunch any more; they have to be available to everyone. Ditto universities. All it does is make the achievements of those who deserve to get them worthless, and breed a load of entitlement whores who think that if they want it, they should have it regardless of ability.

[Dreamstalker]

This. In Mass, the stupid MCAS test in my town changed the cirriculum entirely, JUST to make it so kids could pass it. I was the last group to not need to pass it in order to graduate, but we still took it.

My graduating class as well. We were the guinea pigs for my high school, and even the teachers said "this is stupid".

The test is a JOKE (or at least it was when I took it, it hopefully has been changed since then). According to the results of more than one year, I was only slightly better at Math than I was at English, and weakest on Science, when in fact, science was always my best subject throughout school.

Ditto. The truth is, I just don't do well on standardized tests because I have very little interest in putting effort into something I know won't be of any use.