Has "No Child Left Behind" led to dumber kids?

[Cats]

Ditto. The truth is, I just don't do well on standardized tests because I have very little interest in putting effort into something I know won't be of any use.

I should mention as well, that while I know some students are very intelligent but aren't good test takers (meaning a stanardized test may not be an accurate measure of their knowledge), I was one of those students who wasn't bothered by tests at all, no matter how stupid, and they were my saving grace for my grades since I never did my damn homework. In some classes (not just science), on many many occasions throughout the years I had the highest test score in the class, or among the top scorers on a consistant basis.

Which pretty much makes the innacurate scoring on my MCAS results all the more idiotic and pointless. Too bad it's been years, but I would LOVE to shove my 4 score AP Bio test in the faces of the grading system of the MCAS who told me my science "needed improvement".

[tropicsgoddess]

The NCLB act was an absolute travesty. It's more about drilling standardized tests into kids' heads instead of the stuff they should be learning for the real world so the school can get a good rating and/or money.

[ladyneeva]

I think that the focus on standardized tests is creating another problem -- teachers have become so focused on teaching the correct method that they lose sight of the correct ANSWER.

My niece ran into that a couple years back... she failed a question on a math test because she used the wrong method to arrive at the correct answer, and the teacher had not specified that they had to use the EXACT method that was being taught in class. Honestly, she was only upset because if she had gotten 100% on that test she would have gotten points for some incentive thing her school does lol.

Anyway, the problem was how much you would pay if you bought a $5.00 item at 75% off (my niece was only I think 8 or 9 at the time, so while it's easy to us not so much to someone just learning the material!). She got the answer by dividing $5.00 by 4.

What the teacher WANTED was for her to divide $5.00 by 100, multiply that by 75 then subtract the result from $5.00.

The teacher was so fixated on the kids using the "correct" method that she never even noticed that the ANSWER was right. And once it was pointed out she did correct the grade and all. But the point is that the teachers have become so fixated on teaching the method and teaching to pass that specific test that they are starting to lose sight of the fact that it is the ANSWER that matters, not how you get to it.

[jackfaire]

The teacher was so fixated on the kids using the "correct" method that she never even noticed that the ANSWER was right. And once it was pointed out she did correct the grade and all.

I am not sure what that has to do with NCLB. Using the correct method was something my math classes were uptight about when I was in school because the point of the tests was to apply the methods currently being taught.

That was why you had to show your work to show that while yes you could arrive at the correct answer you could do so while showing a grasp of the method being taught. If you used another method then you weren't showing that and of course got marked down.

The answer isn't always the most important thing on a math test.

[Dreamstalker]

I think that the focus on standardized tests is creating another problem -- teachers have become so focused on teaching the correct method that they lose sight of the correct ANSWER.

I ran into this as well. In high school I got shoehorned into something called the "Interactive Math Program". What a disaster.

It basically didn't care about the correct answer or even the correct method...I recall a number of cases where I had the right answer, but used the "wrong" way to get to the answer. Had I done what the booklet said, the answer would be wrong (oftentimes their method was so convoluted it seemed tailor-made to confuse kids into making mistakes). And I could prove it; a lot of times I had my own work and the requested work side-by-side, with a short explanation why I used to method I did.

Didn't matter. Just because I didn't follow directions to the letter I was penalized.

[KellyHabersham]

This may or may not be off-topic, but since this post got me thinking about some of my own experiences in school, and how it's affected things for me now....

I don't have time to get into all the details just now, but basically......I always had a difficult time with math in school, it was one of the subjects which I'd flunked in 8th grade, and I should have repeated that year. But for whatever reason, the school decided to promote me on to high school anyhow....I guess they wanted to save me the embarassment of being held back.

My family had moved to Phoenix that summer, and when I did testing for high school, they recognized that my math skills were NOT were they should be, but for whatever reason, they didn't want to encourage the idea of my being tested for learning problems/going to the "special help" center for that subject. I ended up dropping Algebra 1 because I was flunking, my teacher mentioned that she suspected I had a learning problem in math, but the school still didn't think it was necessary to look into it.

So......I ended up graduating high school with very little background in math, no knowledge at all of chemistry or physics, and it's made it really difficult to think about getting a college degree because I wouldn't be able to pass the math requirements. (thus, making it more difficult for me to get a well-paying job)

[Crazedclerkthe2nd]

I should mention as well, that while I know some students are very intelligent but aren't good test takers (meaning a stanardized test may not be an accurate measure of their knowledge), I was one of those students who wasn't bothered by tests at all, no matter how stupid, and they were my saving grace for my grades since I never did my damn homework. In some classes (not just science), on many many occasions throughout the years I had the highest test score in the class, or among the top scorers on a consistant basis.

You and dreamstalker make some good points. I can't remember taking a single standardize test in school and if I did take one, it only happened once in grade school. I never took a single standardized in high school I know that for sure. (bear in mind I was educated in Canada).

But I wanted to expand on a point dreamstalker made. What exactly is the point of the tests? To give administration and government officials that false notion they are (apparently) doing a good job of educating the future leaders of America or is it something beyond that?

[Rageaholic]

I ran into this as well. In high school I got shoehorned into something called the "Interactive Math Program". What a disaster.

It basically didn't care about the correct answer or even the correct method...I recall a number of cases where I had the right answer, but used the "wrong" way to get to the answer. Had I done what the booklet said, the answer would be wrong (oftentimes their method was so convoluted it seemed tailor-made to confuse kids into making mistakes). And I could prove it; a lot of times I had my own work and the requested work side-by-side, with a short explanation why I used to method I did.

Didn't matter. Just because I didn't follow directions to the letter I was penalized.

I've always hated this. It took me 3 times as long because they demanded I do it a certain way. In reality, there could be other steps used to solve a problem. 20000 divided by 25 could be solved by dividing 20000 by 100 to get 200 and multiplying 200 by 4 (100 divided by 25) to get 800. There are always little tricks you can use and those tricks have helped me.

[Greenday]

Honestly, the biggest source of dumber kids...:

More kids not giving a crap because they know they are just going to get passed so the teachers don't have to deal with them again.

[ladyneeva]

The answer isn't always the most important thing on a math test.

Getting the correct answer should ALWAYS be the most important thing. Save theory and methodology for advanced classes, like college. For basic schooling, always focus on getting the right answer, preferably without using a calculator.

Maybe it's shallow of me, but I assume any adult or older teen who cannot manage to add and subtract two digit numbers in their head, make correct change based on their countries currency, and calculate 15%, 25%, 50%, and 75% of any whole dollar figure in their heads is, to put it bluntly, a little on the stupid side at best.

Mainly because, when it comes to math, the word idiot has my face next to it in the dictionary and even I can handle that.

Knowing how to do all that will serve kids a lot better than focusing on some weird method that takes longer and provides more opportunity for error.

And don't even get me started on handwriting... apparently, judging again from my niece, the current rage in school is to teach all the kids to use a specific style. And if that kids handwriting style doesn't exactly conform to whatever style the school district uses, the kid ends up getting marked down. As long as it's legible, who CARES what 'font' the kids write in?

As for what this has to do with NCLB, I feel it all comes down to basically teaching kids to pass tests rather than teaching them the material. So they teach them the ONE mathematical method needed to pass the test, rather than doing what my better math teachers did and showing as many of the various ways to solve a given problem as they knew, and then letting the children decide which method was easiest for that particular child.

[jackfaire]

Getting the correct answer should ALWAYS be the most important thing. Save theory and methodology for advanced classes, like college. For basic schooling, always focus on getting the right answer, preferably without using a calculator..

I disagree. Most often those getting the correct answer are doing so using methods they have learned in previous math classes. If teaching methods is unimportant then we can stop teaching math after the fifth grade.

The point of most math classes after 5th grade is to teach method. Saying the correct answer is important and method is not to me is like saying, "Well you understood what I was saying in my English paper which means it was correct so what if the grammar and spelling sucked"

Correct answers are the first level of learning. After that your supposed to understand the fundamentals behind things like English, Math etc.

I went to college with a lot of students who had to take remedial math classes because they didn't understand methods and were incapable of understanding the college level math courses.

[Dreamstalker]

The program I was in sometimes gave an answer and expected students to figure out the method. In a lot of those cases the method itself was flawed (thus leading to a wrong answer, which was only obvious if one actually worked it through)....but oh no, the book can't be wrong, I must have messed up somewhere.

[Rapscallion]

The issue with NCLB and similar from what I can see is that they fail to understand that not everyone can do everything. Some can't do anything. If they really did it right, the vast majority would be able to do well on a standard program, some would require a high-grade program for gifted children who need to be pushed, some would have to be steered into non-academical studies where they could perform well in some sort of menial work.

Then you get the children who aren't overly able in any real way shape or form. We're talking about the ones who can barely read or write enough to get their welfare/sign on at the dole office. There are some people you just cannot help.

Rapscallion

[ladyneeva]

The point of most math classes after 5th grade is to teach method. Saying the correct answer is important and method is not to me is like saying, "Well you understood what I was saying in my English paper which means it was correct so what if the grammar and spelling sucked"

Spelling and grammar are an integral part of language and communication.

Not knowing that you can get to "what is 75% off $5.00" using any other method besides the incredibly cumbersome "divide $5.00 by 100, multiply that by 75, subtract that from $5.00" method is not an integral part of mathematics.

Teaching that only the method is important and not that the answer is correct is like saying "Well, I know I was supposed to write a paper about Romeo and Juliet, but I decided I wanted to write one about the movie Avatar and how environmentally irresponsible those blue skinned freaks are. But my grammar and spelling were perfect, so I should get an A+"

[jackfaire]

My point is that no the person shouldn't get credit for giving the correct answer if they use a method they learned two years ago when the point of the last two weeks in class was to learn this other method and the test is to test the grasp of that method.

If the person has already learned to reach the correct answer then giving them credit for doing so over and over again is pointless if they aren't learning anything. The point of class is to learn.