Has "No Child Left Behind" led to dumber kids?

[Rageaholic]

And don't even get me started on handwriting... apparently, judging again from my niece, the current rage in school is to teach all the kids to use a specific style. And if that kids handwriting style doesn't exactly conform to whatever style the school district uses, the kid ends up getting marked down. As long as it's legible, who CARES what 'font' the kids write in?

DO NOT GET ME STARTED ON THAT! I had learning difficulties and it showed from my handwritting. I had spent most of my childhood learning basic handwritting, than I learn cursive. That's fine, but by fourth grade, they tell us that only papers written in cursive will be accepted.

So let me get this straight, something we've learned since kindergarten is completely disregarded just so we can write our papers with something we just started learning? What kind of BS is this? There is nothing wrong with the other style! If I write better another way, and it saves me less hassle, what's the effing problem?! It's just making things more difficult for me.

I disagree. Most often those getting the correct answer are doing so using methods they have learned in previous math classes. If teaching methods is unimportant then we can stop teaching math after the fifth grade.

The point of most math classes after 5th grade is to teach method. Saying the correct answer is important and method is not to me is like saying, "Well you understood what I was saying in my English paper which means it was correct so what if the grammar and spelling sucked"

Correct answers are the first level of learning. After that your supposed to understand the fundamentals behind things like English, Math etc.

I went to college with a lot of students who had to take remedial math classes because they didn't understand methods and were incapable of understanding the college level math courses.

It depends on the context. For instance, if you can skip a few steps or just do them in your head, why should you get marked down? If anything, you should be marked up for being able to do those steps in the blink of an eye. As a math geek, I would always be so frusturated that I'd get marked down just for not "showing my work", when in reality, I was just saving time by doing multiple steps at once.

Also, sometimes people can still show understanding of those methods, but find tricks on solving them. Maybe they use the taught method for 80% of the problems, but use their own tricks for 20%. That shows they can think outside the box.

The issue with NCLB and similar from what I can see is that they fail to understand that not everyone can do everything. Some can't do anything. If they really did it right, the vast majority would be able to do well on a standard program, some would require a high-grade program for gifted children who need to be pushed, some would have to be steered into non-academical studies where they could perform well in some sort of menial work.

Then you get the children who aren't overly able in any real way shape or form. We're talking about the ones who can barely read or write enough to get their welfare/sign on at the dole office. There are some people you just cannot help.

Rapscallion

Exactly. This is why I despise the general education requirements in college.

There comes a time when you have to accept your strengths as well as your weaknesses. For instance, I was never good at descriptive writting, but the schools kept pushing it on me as if I couldn't pass it, I would fail at everything. Hell, I knew from preschool that math would be something I'd excel in. Why can't they accept that everyone has different strengths and weaknesses?

I'm all for teaching students a diversity of things, but if they can't learn it or can't do well, than don't except them to.

[ladyneeva]

Not even talking the printing versus cursive thing, but different 'styles' of printing entirely.

http://www.drawyourworld.com/dnealian.html

If you scroll down that page, just looking at the printing side on the left of each row, that is what I mean. Being incredibly anal about if the cross bar in an A is just above, just below, or right precisely on a center line. Then the kid switches school districts to one who uses a different 'style' and it just goes downhill from there.

But hey, I guess if correct answers no longer matter in math then readable handwriting no longer matters either -- it is more important for all the children to do everything exactly the same way like good little Stepfords than any other consideration. After all, that makes it easier to pass the all important tests.

[Rageaholic]

WTF!

I don't even know what to say to that. My handwritting is bad enough as it is so making it readable alone is a challenge for me. Now they want to make up even more writting styles based on such minor differences? This is borderline perfectionism. As long as it's readable, it shouldn't matter. It's crap like this that makes me despise our schools.

I'd love to see their reasoning for it. Probably something along the lines of "Well, in the 'real world', they will be judged based on their handwritting".

[jackfaire]

It depends on the context. For instance, if you can skip a few steps or just do them in your head, why should you get marked down? If anything, you should be marked up for being able to do those steps in the blink of an eye. As a math geek, I would always be so frusturated that I'd get marked down just for not "showing my work", when in reality, I was just saving time by doing multiple steps at once.

Also, sometimes people can still show understanding of those methods, but find tricks on solving them. Maybe they use the taught method for 80% of the problems, but use their own tricks for 20%. That shows they can think outside the box.

*nods* I get all that. If you can think outside of the box great, if you can do math quicker in your head great see about getting advanced into more complex math classes.

But in my experience the majority of the kids who didn't show their work "because they did it in their head" were full of shit and blatantly copying answers from the back of the book

[ladyneeva]

Problem with that theory (that they were cheating and thats why they didn't show their work) is that if they WERE cheating -- they would have copied the WORK too! Besides, what math teacher would be stupid enough to use the exact same problem that is in the book on the test when they can literally substitute any number at all and have a problem that is NOT in the book to be copied from in the first place?

[jackfaire]

Problem with that theory (that they were cheating and thats why they didn't show their work) is that if they WERE cheating -- they would have copied the WORK too!

A lot of the math books we used didn't show the work in the back of the book they just showed the answers and the teachers used the chapter reviews as the tests instead of writing their own.

[gremcint]

I remember an assignment in grade 6, I was to do this over the christmas break in addition to other homework.

I was given a 2 page typed story and was to count the number of times each vowel appeared in the story.

To this day I still have no fucking clue what this was to teach me in any way.

[jackfaire]

I remember an assignment in grade 6, I was to do this over the christmas break in addition to other homework.

I was given a 2 page typed story and was to count the number of times each vowel appeared in the story.

To this day I still have no fucking clue what this was to teach me in any way.

That teacher must have hated their students either that or didn't expect anyone to actually do the assignment and assigned it because the admin insisted the students be given homework for the holiday.

[HYHYBT]

In 6TH GRADE!? The point was to make sure you didn't get to enjoy that hour or so of your vacation, or else simply to find out who would do it.

[Boozy]

Being incredibly anal about if the cross bar in an A is just above, just below, or right precisely on a center line. Then the kid switches school districts to one who uses a different 'style' and it just goes downhill from there.

Insisting on a certain style of handwriting is just as destructive to a child's learning process as insisting that they hold the pen a certain way. It is general practice in most school boards here in Canada to allow any sort of writing as long as the end result is legible.

Proper cursive is taught once (in grade 5 I believe) and not brought up again. At no point are teachers to re-position a pencil in a child's hand.

[Dreamstalker]

the majority of the kids who didn't show their work "because they did it in their head" were full of shit and blatantly copying answers from the back of the book

That seems to be what the IMP teachers thought. One problem; the book didn't have answers in the back. When I did show my work, that was when I could prove that the answers given were wrong (zomg how dare she impugn the Holy Math Booklet).

My mom was left-handed...I say "was" because during her tenure in Catholic school, she was forcibly taught to use her right hand, so now for all intents and purposes she is right-handed (probably for the better, as not a lot of left-handed tools exist).

I hold my pen backwards. I tried to learn the "correct" way but it just felt wrong to me (not to say I can't do it, just that my writing stands a better chance of being legible if I do what's normal for me).

[jackfaire]

I became ambidextrious after I broke my right arm and never noticed a need for different tools when using my left.

[HYHYBT]

...during her tenure in Catholic school, she was forcibly taught to use her right hand...

I almost had the opposite problem. I'm what you might call semi-ambidextrous: my right hand is better for detail work like writing, but my left works perfectly well for most other purposes and, except for a few specific tasks, I tend to use whichever is more convenient. My teacher declared me to be right-handed, and taught me that way. Dad saw that I held my fork left-handed (and after all, why not? It's on the left side of the plate, after all!) and got the idea that I was really left-handed, and so after my homework was done would try to make me write with my left hand. It didn't take. He's still, 30 years later, not entirely convinced that I'm right-handed, and I'm still confused that so many people pass their fork back and forth from one hand to the other depending on whether they're also holding the knife or not.

[Vagabond]

I don't pass the fork, but I can use a knife left-handed, just not very well.
I was taught to be right handed. I'm told I was born ambidextrous, but then I was taught to use 1 hand. So, I just used my right hand for everything.
Now my left hand isn't as agile, dextrous, or finely coordinated as my right.
I think I got gyped.

[IDrinkaRum]

Child Rum is ambidextrious. To a point. She used to have problem "crossing the midline" on a piece of paper. She'd draw a line on a piece of paper with say her right hand, stop at the middle of the paper, and then switch hands to finish the line. That's not appropriate. She does write with her left hand, but when coloring? She doesn't care which hand she uses and I'm not going to be up in arms about it. (My mother on the other hands, is: ZOMG! She's using her left hand to color!)

Also, there was an article somewhere (either in a magazine or on the internets) that claims research shows those children who are ambidexterious are also more likely to be ADD or ADHD.