On what planet is this acceptable?

[Aethian]

Because the Indians sucked at creating a nation and fighting wars. Besides if I moved to a reservation where the main language was some Indian language I would learn it so I could talk to people. I wouldn't expect everybody to bend to my needs and provide translators.

I want you deported...now...FASTER.

My family has lived on these lands long before Columbus came. After he came and then the new settlers came it was WE, the native American, who suddenly became the outsider because 'we didn't speak english' which must have equaled 'we know nothing'. It's attitudes like yours that make me wish to the higher grounds that my ancestors didn't help yours survive the different climate.

But they did. They went above and beyond the view your portraying now. And look how they were treated; killed, mocked, pushed around, and stolen from. Hell one of the areas where I have ancestors buried in as late as 1896 have been dug up as a 'archaeological' find. Bull shit that is nothing more then grave robbery and one of the reasons why the generation after that one was moved to another spot.

So go home. Find out from where ever your ancestors came from and go the hell back. I hope it's a country of a language you don't know and I hope you get treated the same way your treating those you don't know.

[elsporko]

Don't act like native Americans didn't have wars. There was ton of fighting before white people even showed up. You just lost in the end. Sucks for you, but take a look at any other group of conquered people and you will see them getting it alot worse. Was there alot of racism and corruption when dealing with the Indians? Yes, but that doesn't change the fact that there were some people trying to help the Indians out, even if it was misguided, and what happened is certainly better then the alternatives (slavery, expulsion, or straight up genocide)

[Fryk]

Yes, but that doesn't change the fact that there were some people trying to help the Indians out, even if it was misguided, and what happened is certainly better then the alternatives (slavery, expulsion, or straight up genocide)

... and a lot worse than some of the other alternatives, live coexisting peacefully.

And just because a minority of people in that time tried to help the Indian (so long as they converted to the "right" religion) doesn't mean that most people were indifferent or worse. And yeah, let's talk about that whole conversion thing. The institutions that helped them would only do so, provided that they not only spoke english, but converted to christianity, and changed the way they dressed. Not exactly melting them into the pot.

[pssorens]

Yes, but that doesn't change the fact that there were some people trying to help the Indians out, even if it was misguided, and what happened is certainly better then the alternatives (slavery, expulsion, or straight up genocide)

Bolding is added by me.

Sorry but all 3 of your alternatives did happen.

Slavery- mainly in the southwest and mexico.

Expulsion- the whole point of the reservations is expulsion, kick them off the good land and give them the crappy stuff.

Genocide- Ask the Mandan, Hidasta, and Arikira Tribes of the Upper Missouri about that.

[smileyeagle1021]

A few things for Elsporko.
Should deaf people be deported because they don't understand English? (hint, ASL and English are two separate languages... most deaf people's understanding of English is about on the same level as a high school second language... if that... hence why even relay operators are classified as interpreters)
When I graduated high school I knew enough German that I could have gotten a work visa in Germany... I guarantee you that with my knowledge of German I would not be able to accurately describe in german what was going on while under that much stress if I were in that situation... should I have been deported despite knowing the language and just not having a high enough mastery in it to be able to translate under stress?
Also define productive member of society. Considering how many agriculture companies turn to immigrant labor because they can't get it anywhere else (my mother used to work in the admin office of one such company... they would advertise heavily in the united states for farm hand positions and without fail every single year they would get one or two applications at most and they needed over 100 people), how well would you survive without the food provided by immigrants?

[elsporko]

... and a lot worse than some of the other alternatives, live coexisting peacefully.

And just because a minority of people in that time tried to help the Indian (so long as they converted to the "right" religion) doesn't mean that most people were indifferent or worse. And yeah, let's talk about that whole conversion thing. The institutions that helped them would only do so, provided that they not only spoke english, but converted to christianity, and changed the way they dressed. Not exactly melting them into the pot.

Plenty of people helped without regards to religion. Reservations themselves were considered helping. It got the Indians to a place where they would be left alone to do what they wanted. Its just a shame that greed and corruption screwed with that plan. Of course the majority of the people would have been fine with killing the Indians so being alive is better then not being alive. I think the main "convert or else we won't help you" movement was more among the Spanish missions on the west coast.

Should deaf people be deported because they don't understand English? (hint, ASL and English are two separate languages... most deaf people's understanding of English is about on the same level as a high school second language... if that... hence why even relay operators are classified as interpreters)

Deaf people have a disability. If they are able to communicate then there is no issues with them immigrating if they are otherwise productive members of society.

When I graduated high school I knew enough German that I could have gotten a work visa in Germany... I guarantee you that with my knowledge of German I would not be able to accurately describe in german what was going on while under that much stress if I were in that situation... should I have been deported despite knowing the language and just not having a high enough mastery in it to be able to translate under stress?

I think it would have been in your best interest to not be living in a country where you were unable to tell people that things were being forcibly put in your butt.

Considering how many agriculture companies turn to immigrant labor because they can't get it anywhere else (my mother used to work in the admin office of one such company... they would advertise heavily in the united states for farm hand positions and without fail every single year they would get one or two applications at most and they needed over 100 people), how well would you survive without the food provided by immigrants?

I think there are two solution to this problem if they cannot get enough Americans to do the job.

1. Have prisoners do it. That would keep prices low since they don't need to be paid and would force them to be doing something productive.

2. Allow temporary work visas to those who want to work the fields but have strict penalties for using the opportunity to become an illegal immigrant. Something like 5 years in prison for every year they illegally live in America and then deportation. Or maybe deportation to a country they didn't actually come from. It would be a fitting punishment and would lower the chances of them making it back to America since they wouldn't have any contacts in that nation.

[the_std]

Or maybe deportation to a country they didn't actually come from. It would be a fitting punishment and would lower the chances of them making it back to America since they wouldn't have any contacts in that nation.

What kind of solution is this? Strand them in some country where they have no contacts, no support net, probably don't speak the language... Basically abandon them where they have no hope of supporting themselves or bettering their situation? That's cruel and inhumane.

I have a solution for your "everyone has to speak English" plan - they don't. You have not defined what "productivity" it is you're measuring people by, but it's been pointed out again and again that people who don't speak English are making money, giving back to the community and basically situating themselves so that they can learn English and contribute even more to society. Do you think it's fun for them to live in a country where they can't communicate with so many other people?

I would dearly like to know what your idea of productivity is. Straight up, no chaser.

[Boozy]

I'd be interested in hearing that, as well.

I recently spent an afternoon in Toronto's Chinatown. In a city that has been hit quite hard by the recent economic downturn, here was a segment of the city that was still thriving.

No one was speaking English except for the tourists. Despite the minor inconvenience of the language barrier, commerce was booming.

[smileyeagle1021]

Deaf people have a disability. If they are able to communicate then there is no issues with them immigrating if they are otherwise productive members of society.
-snip-
2. Allow temporary work visas to those who want to work the fields but have strict penalties for using the opportunity to become an illegal immigrant. Something like 5 years in prison for every year they illegally live in America and then deportation. Or maybe deportation to a country they didn't actually come from. It would be a fitting punishment and would lower the chances of them making it back to America since they wouldn't have any contacts in that nation.

Indeed deaf people do, yet they still contribute to society despite that... so how is someone who has not (yet) learned a language any different.

And that is exactly what the company did (minus the deportation bit)... the vast majority followed the rules, they knew they were better off just coming back each year on temp visas (the company tried to always rehire previous workers again first) than taking their chances as an illegal. Despite that every year people would try to avoid leaving. And no matter how bad the punishment that will still happen because there will always be people who are desperate enough to risk everything, including their lives.

As for the comment about not knowing how to say someone has been shoving something up my butt... I don't know about any language courses you took, but that isn't exactly covered in any I took... and why would a language course cover that... the vast majority of people aren't going to need to know how to say that particular phrase... hence why translators are around... to be able to translate those phrases most people will never need to know.

[elsporko]

I think if you know the words for "butt" and "shove" you can give them the picture with a little pantomiming. As long as you have the skills (which the mother apparently didn't) to give the idea of what happened they can figure it out.

Indeed deaf people do, yet they still contribute to society despite that... so how is someone who has not (yet) learned a language any different.

Because deaf people have a physical handicap while people who don't know a language just don't know it due to not learning it. Your question is like asking why people without functioning legs get a handicap sticker but fat people who don't like to walk don't.

And that is exactly what the company did (minus the deportation bit)... the vast majority followed the rules, they knew they were better off just coming back each year on temp visas (the company tried to always rehire previous workers again first) than taking their chances as an illegal. Despite that every year people would try to avoid leaving. And no matter how bad the punishment that will still happen because there will always be people who are desperate enough to risk everything, including their lives.

If they want to follow the rules and leave when they are suppose to great. When they learn English they should be put on top of the immigration list. Those who don't follow the rules should be punished. Its that way with anything, rule breakers are punished, rule followers rewarded.

You have not defined what "productivity" it is you're measuring people
by

I think a productive citizen is one who is able to function without accommodation in the economic, social, and governmental processes associated with being an American. If you can't do anything without a translator present, and as a result are burdening everybody, then you are not productive.

A productive citizen should also be able to defend himself, so others don't have to waste time doing so. If you can't speak English and get mugged it takes more police resources to help you then if you could speak with them. Of course there are alot of people who refuse to learn English because they know not being able to talk to the police is a benefit if they are arrested, but thats a seperate issue.

What kind of solution is this? Strand them in some country where they have no contacts, no support net, probably don't speak the language... Basically abandon them where they have no hope of supporting themselves or bettering their situation? That's cruel and inhumane.

It would definitly make them think twice about illegal immigration.

[the_std]

It would definitly make them think twice about illegal immigration.

So would cutting off their hand or murdering their children or a whole host of other things... But we don't do them for a reason, and I said it originally. Cruel and inhumane.