Are we too lenient and tolerant of ILLEGAL immigrants?

[Crazedclerkthe2nd]

I'm going to need to see some kind of citation to back up this statement. Illegal immigrants are not qualified to receive welfare benefits of any kind in the United States.

I don't have an official link to a story or anything, but it's no secret that identity theft can and does happen, SSN cards can be easily forged as can many other forms of ID. I wouldn't doubt for a moment that many illegal immigrants use false ID documents to get government aid.

I
Again, I'd like a link. I don't doubt that something of the sort happened, but I have a feeling that it wasn't as clear cut as you're making it.

That I do have. Story can be found at:

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=55025

It's still pretty clear cut IMO. The court of public opinion was clearly on the sheriff's side.

With regards to the comment about illegals being harmful to the economy, I don't have any hard data to back that up. I don't doubt even illegal immigrants spend SOME of their money in this country as opposed to sending it all back home, but I fail to see how having more americans in those jobs instead of illegals will be a bad thing.

Here's something else to chew on with regards to immigration. Let's say Homeland security catches a Pakistani citizen trying to get into the U.S. from Mexico. They can't send the guy back to Mexico (because he's not a Mexican national) but often they can't lock him up here because there's no room, so what do they do?

They LET HIM GO as long as he promises to show up at an immigration hearing at some later date. How many people do you think actually show up?
If you guessed hardly any, you're right.

This practice is known as "catch and release" and it's despicable IMO.

If you want a link on that here you go:

http://www.numbersusa.com/content/ne...al-aliens.html

[Boozy]

I don't doubt even illegal immigrants spend SOME of their money in this country as opposed to sending it all back home, but I fail to see how having more americans in those jobs instead of illegals will be a bad thing.

It's because Americans are far over-qualified for those jobs. If you're literate, you could be doing something other than agricultural labour and the like. It's a waste of the US educational infrastructure to put relatively educated people into low-skilled jobs.

Essentially, at it's root, that's what causes recessions and depressions; a waste of human potential and infrastructure.

I should point out that many immigrants (illegal or not) are over-qualified for the jobs they hold, too. We all have stories about chatting with the cab driver only to find out he's a frickin' doctor in his home country. That's a problem, and the US should try to do a better job at exploiting those skills.

[elsporko]

This is a common misconception, and it drives me nuts.

Employment is not a zero sum game. Many people seem to think that there are a finite number of jobs in the US, and once they're filled, that's it.

We know that's not true. Economies expand and contract all the time. Population growth will often cause the economy to expand.

One of the biggest advantages to low-skilled immigration in a technically-advanced country like the US is that it sharply decreases food prices. The cost savings for the average American is significant, and that capital tends to get put towards education and infrastructure, which causes more economic growth.

People also seem to have a misunderstanding of remittances to immigrants's countries of origin. Much less is sent abroad than you'd think, and much of that is spent on US imports. Remittances boost trade. That's why foreign aid packages are commonly given with the caveat that they are spent on US goods.

If there are 100 jobs availiable in an area and 100 illegal immigrants take those jobs then there are no more jobs availiable. Some jobs may come from the increased population but not as many as if Americans held those jobs and spent 100% of the money at home rather then sending some back to the country of orgin where it will probably go to funding some terrorist or drug syndicate.

If we want to keep food prices low lets let immigrants in temperarily or have the job done for free by prisoners. That would be better.

[Shangri-laschild]

Illegal immigrants DO pay taxes in the form of payroll and sales tax. They don't file income tax, but so few of them earn enough to pay anyway. And remember, they pay into SSI but will never be able to collect it.

Only if they are being paid above the board. If they aren't, then they might not be contributing to taxes.

Outside of how I feel about illegal immigration, I do see a difference between the people who come here illegally and then work to become legal vs the people who come here illegally and just don't care. I'm not saying there isn't anything wrong with the first one, but I do see it as being better than the second.

[Boozy]

If there are 100 jobs availiable in an area and 100 illegal immigrants take those jobs then there are no more jobs availiable. Some jobs may come from the increased population but not as many as if Americans held those jobs and spent 100% of the money at home rather then sending some back to the country of orgin where it will probably go to funding some terrorist or drug syndicate.

That is one of the most racially offensive statements you've made, and that's saying a fair bit.

Back it up with data or I'm going to assume you're just trolling.

[elsporko]

Alot of South American countries have drug cartels or anti government groups that have no problem shaking down local populations for money. Its common knowledge.

[Rapscallion]

Alot of South American countries have drug cartels or anti government groups that have no problem shaking down local populations for money. Its common knowledge.

Proof of this? Links? Stats?

Organised crime happens everywhere. A blanket, sweeping statement like that proves nothing barring your own bias. What happens to the proceeds of crime in your neighbourhood? It's not a third-world country so it's 'widely known' that it just funds crime syndicates instead of terrorists? Is that your line of thinking?

Rapscallion

[Vagabond]

I'm all for LEGAL immigration, and/or people trying to immigrate legally.
ILLEGAL, suggests to be that they are already breaking the law, therefore... they should be subject to the laws of that land, but since they're not citizens - send them right back from whence they came. With possibly incentive to either try to enter legally next time, or incentive to not enter illegally.

Trebuchets and/or catapults and/or skydiving without parachutes may or may not be involved. Depending on the number, type and degree of offence.

I do not believe a wall will work, as I've heard stories and rumors of tunnels already underneath the borders to circumvent regular authorities
Source1, Source2,
And already how to find/detect such tunnels, which would suggest this isn't a new problem. Source

[draggar]

What good does that do when they just come right back across the border?

Not let them back in?

If they're here illegally then they came across though means other than legal means. We didn't "let" them back in - they (for the lack of a better term) tresspassed on this country.

Proof of this? Links? Stats?

Organised crime happens everywhere. A blanket, sweeping statement like that proves nothing barring your own bias. What happens to the proceeds of crime in your neighbourhood? It's not a third-world country so it's 'widely known' that it just funds crime syndicates instead of terrorists? Is that your line of thinking?

Rapscallion

I don't have links to news stories but I do have stories of people who used to live there and moved to the US (though legal means). Why did they leave those nations? Crime, drug cartels running towns, governments throwing people out of airplanes (with no parachutes).

Look at Mexico. When I was in college I had some e-mail / MUD buddies who lived in Mexico. They'd tell me of the crap that went on in the cities (corruption, drug / gang related voilent crimes, etc.). This is over 15 years ago yet it never made our news. Now, it is hard to contain because something can happen and it can be on YouTube within minutes (via cell phones). These countries don't like press like this because they rely heavily on tourism and if all the bad press came out then no one would go there.

It's not just Mexico. I know people with similar stories from Columbia, Jamaica, Haiti, Argentina, etc..

Yes, the US isn't a perfect nation and yes we have our crime but there are far worse options out there.

[Crazedclerkthe2nd]

Essentially, at it's root, that's what causes recessions and depressions; a waste of human potential and infrastructure.

I should point out that many immigrants (illegal or not) are over-qualified for the jobs they hold, too. We all have stories about chatting with the cab driver only to find out he's a frickin' doctor in his home country. That's a problem, and the US should try to do a better job at exploiting those skills.

That argument doesn't really hold during this recession because there are MILLIONS and MILLIONS of people in jobs they are overqualified for. Former investment bankers are now working as a tellers, former marketing managers are now working at Mcdonald's. Why? Because they are the ONLY jobs available.

A lot of people, if they are desperate enough, will take any kind of job they can get.

[crashhelmet]

That argument doesn't really hold during this recession because there are MILLIONS and MILLIONS of people in jobs they are overqualified for. Former investment bankers are now working as a tellers, former marketing managers are now working at Mcdonald's. Why? Because they are the ONLY jobs available.

A lot of people, if they are desperate enough, will take any kind of job they can get.

This is true. When I got laid off a few months after 9/11, I was out of work for 5 months trying to find IT work. I ended up getting a job as a bartender. The same day I got hired as a bartender, I applied at a Burger King.

A lot of people will take jobs they're over qualified for. Others let their pride get in the way.

CH

[Rapscallion]

I don't have links to news stories but I do have stories of people who used to live there and moved to the US (though legal means). Why did they leave those nations? Crime, drug cartels running towns, governments throwing people out of airplanes (with no parachutes).

Look at Mexico. When I was in college I had some e-mail / MUD buddies who lived in Mexico. They'd tell me of the crap that went on in the cities (corruption, drug / gang related voilent crimes, etc.). This is over 15 years ago yet it never made our news. Now, it is hard to contain because something can happen and it can be on YouTube within minutes (via cell phones). These countries don't like press like this because they rely heavily on tourism and if all the bad press came out then no one would go there.

Thanks for the response, Draggar. I was sort of hoping Elsporko would back his claims up instead of spouting rhetoric. I can't say I was disappointed by his response, though, as I wasn't really expecting one.

Rapscallion

[Lace Neil Singer]

This is true. When I got laid off a few months after 9/11, I was out of work for 5 months trying to find IT work. I ended up getting a job as a bartender. The same day I got hired as a bartender, I applied at a Burger King.

A lot of people will take jobs they're over qualified for. Others let their pride get in the way.

CH

Agreed. When I left college after landing 3 A-Levels, I couldn't get a job. As far as I was concerned, any job would do. I eventually went back to college and got an NVQ but when the job at the shire horse centre came my way, I wasn't going to turn it down cuz I was over qualified.

The people who are turning down these jobs are not doing so cuz they're over qualified; it's cuz they're either a) too proud to get down and dirty or b) lazy arses. That doesn't mean we need or want illegal immigrants to fill their places.

[Rapscallion]

The people who are turning down these jobs are not doing so cuz they're over qualified; it's cuz they're either a) too proud to get down and dirty or b) lazy arses. That doesn't mean we need or want illegal immigrants to fill their places.

Who doesn't need them to do the work? The people employing them need workers who will work at that rate of pay in those conditions that the natives won't do, thus keeping the price of their goods low for the rest of the locals.

Let's face it, if the immigrants didn't come and do the dirty, low-paid work then the prices would go up for everyone else.

They're only taking work that the locals want doing. If they are willing to do the job and can do it right, and if the locals aren't willing to do it for that money, then what's the problem?

Rapscallion

[Lace Neil Singer]

Oh, I don't know... perhaps the fact that they're BREAKING THE LAW? If they're legal immigrants, then all well and good, but if they've just sneaked in illegally, then they don't deserve to be given jobs and treated with kid gloves.