Reasons for Being Pro-Life or Pro-Choice

[KnitShoni]

Do you see abortion as murder, no different than breaking into someone's house and stabbing them to death? If you're just against it because you see it as people "not wanting to live with the consequences of their actions," then couldn't you make the same argument about contraception?

The reason I see abortion as different than contraception is because of the development the fetus has gone through at the time of the abortion. Contraception generally works by not allowing a fertilized egg to implant itself on the uterine wall. Abortion requires removing the implanted fetus. Which, by the way, usually already has gone through a long enough development to have a beating heart, and the brain is already beginning to develop.

[MaggieTheCat]

Honestly, how likely is it that BOTH forms of birth control will fail at the same time? And, if it's that big a deal for you to not have children, why not have him get a vasectomy, or you get your tubes tied?

It is probably not common, but it is far from impossible. I have heard of women getting pregnant while on the pill and while using condoms, at the same time. We have talked about vasectomy/tube tying, but 1) I'm on BC pills for other medical reasons, and I would continue taking them even if one of us did undergo the operation and 2) one of my best friend's father had a vasectomy and his wife still got pregnant. And no, she did not sleep with someone else. It is the baby of the father who had the operation. So even that is not fool-proof.

[Amanita]

It has been said that a woman's power lies not only in the ability to give life, but in the ability to withhold.
I'm sorry, but I have to side with those who say that until the fetus is viable to survive without its mother's aid, any rights it may have are secondary to those of the mother. And if the mother is not willing to risk her life or health for a pregnancy, who has the right to force her?
To force a woman to go through 9 months of pregnancy and birth is barbaric- it reduces a woman to a vessel- merely a carrier for the fetus. I refuse to accept that the moment a woman gets pregnant, her right to bodily integrity becomes a non-issue.

As for getting one's tubes tied, it's not always that easy. I have heard many people state that they tried to get their tubes tied, only to be refused by paternalistic doctors who insist that "Oh, you will change your mind", refusing to believe that a woman really wants NO children. A lot of doctors will NOT consider a tubal unless the woman has already had kids.

Pregnancy and childbirth are often not the wonderful rainbow-coloured affairs they're often made out to be. The stories at www.birthtrauma.org will curl your hair.
And yes, I happen to be adopted AND pro-choice. I got lucky and was adopted to a good home. But things could have been far worse for me. What if I had been adopted by abusive parents? What if I had not been so adoptable, and languished in foster care?

ps- Turkey is actually fairly progressive, where Islamic countries are concerned...It's Iran, Saudi Arabia, and a few others that really worry me. Turkey may not be perfect, but things could be waaay worse.

[Boozy]

But, to answer your question: When a woman gets an abortion, she's not just deciding what happens to her own body. She's making a decision on whether another life is allowed to continue. Why does she have that right?

But you make an exception for women who become pregnant due to rape. If you truly believed that a fetus is a life, why would you make such an exception?

[Ghel]

Here's a question to turn this discussion on its ear: If abortion is murder, what punishment should the woman who has an abortion receive? Death penalty? Years in jail? How do you keep track of who has an abortion?

[The Shadow]

Because it's not really about saving a fetus. It's about controlling women and punishing them for being sexually active.

Exactly.

I posted a chart in another thread a few months ago detailing all the inconsistencies of the pro-life mentality and what conclusions can be drawn from them. I still don't know who created it, but it's excellent.

[Lace Neil Singer]

I'm sorry. I just really feel that the time for a woman to decide she doesn't want to have a baby is before she has sex without taking the required steps to prevent getting pregnant. I think this is part of the reason a lot of us (pro-lifers) make exceptions for rape and incest, and cases where the mother's life in in danger. Otherwise, to me, it's just another example in a long list of people not wanting to deal with the consequences of their actions.

Excuse me, but I do take precautions. I'm on the pill and my boyf always uses a condom. Why the fuck should I be punished when I have done my utmost to not get pregnant? Also, I would not make a good mother; and I have suffered from depression in the past. This may sound selfish, but I have worked hard to get my body the way it is and I really don't want it ruined by carrying a parasite for nine months just cuz some bleeding heart wants to control what I do with my body.

(not directed at you; just at the subject. I have no objection to people being against abortion, as long as they don't try to force their choice on to me and others who don't agree. ^^)

[guywithashovel]

) one of my best friend's father had a vasectomy and his wife still got pregnant. And no, she did not sleep with someone else. It is the baby of the father who had the operation. So even that is not fool-proof.

I hate to run the risk of derailing my own thread, but did he follow all of the doctor's directions properly? Reason I ask is because a man is not sterile immediately after a vasectomy. It takes a couple of months for all the excess sperm to get flushed from his body. That's why urologists have them come back for follow-up semen tests afterward. Most of them encourage their patients to wait until they have given two sperm-free semen tests before it's okay to proceed without other forms of contraception.

[Lace Neil Singer]

And yeah, I'm fucking THIRTY YEARS OLD and I still can't get my tubes tied... for no other reason than the fact that I have not spawned. -.- I don't want kids, so why can't I be allowed to be sterilised to ensure I don't have any?

And I would keep on taking the pill cuz it helps balance my hormones.

[MaggieTheCat]

I hate to run the risk of derailing my own thread, but did he follow all of the doctor's directions properly? Reason I ask is because a man is not sterile immediately after a vasectomy. It takes a couple of months for all the excess sperm to get flushed from his body. That's why urologists have them come back for follow-up semen tests afterward. Most of them encourage their patients to wait until they have given two sperm-free semen tests before it's okay to proceed without other forms of contraception.

Considering his wife got pregnant 10 years after he had the vasectomy, yeah, I'm pretty sure he followed the doctor's orders.

[kiwi]

A fetus is a parasitic organism, it relies on the mother (the host) to attain nutrients and grow. It may not be a pretty way of describing it, but it is true.

Parasite: An organism that lives in or on and takes its nourishment from another organism. A parasite cannot live independently

source http://www.medterms.com/script/main/...rticlekey=4769

Even if you do not agree with abortion because of moral, religious or personal reasons, you should have no rights to determine what another person does with their body and their life.

[Cat]

And yeah, I'm fucking THIRTY YEARS OLD and I still can't get my tubes tied... for no other reason than the fact that I have not spawned. -.- I don't want kids, so why can't I be allowed to be sterilised to ensure I don't have any?

And I would keep on taking the pill cuz it helps balance my hormones.

Count me in the pills/condoms/30+/don't want kids crowd. Cats, not kids , for me.

[fireheart17]

QFT.

If I'm raped, I'm taking the morning after pill, getting an abortion, etc. because I will NOT give up 9 months of my life and go through the physical and psychological trauma of pregnancy and birth just to pass on some fucking sicko's genetics. NO. Same thing with incest - since I'm guessing the vast majority of incest cases are also rapes.

Now, if my boyfriend and I have an oopsie, that's different. I still believe these women should have the right to an abortion if that's the path they choose. I may not choose that option, but I want the right to a choice.

100% agree here.

I'm sorry. I just really feel that the time for a woman to decide she doesn't want to have a baby is before she has sex without taking the required steps to prevent getting pregnant. I think this is part of the reason a lot of us (pro-lifers) make exceptions for rape and incest, and cases where the mother's life in in danger. Otherwise, to me, it's just another example in a long list of people not wanting to deal with the consequences of their actions.

Not every single form of contraception is 100% effective. Combined, yes. But bear in mind that some people may have family principles that prevent them from seeing a doctor to get the other form of contraception (regarding the Pill/Implanon) i.e. religious or cultural reasons. Other people may not be able to afford it. But condoms can break, the pill doesn't work if you're sick and certain other forms of birth control can cause more side effects that make a person's life hell.

So you believe that a woman should be denied the right to control her own body as punishment for lack of foresight?

Do you believe that antibiotics should be given to those who contract an std, or should they suffer as well?

How about someone who made the poor decision to ride a bicycle without a helmet? Should they sustain a head injury, they shouldn't be allowed to make decisions about their treatment, correct? Because if they wanted to control their own bodies, then they should have worn a helmet.

The only people who are allowed to make medical decisions for themselves are those who have never made an error in judgement?

Agreed here. Nobody is perfect. So why should we be making judgements? What's next-all young women wanna get pregnant?

And, I don't know about all women who have abortions, but I do know that the women I know who've had them, got pregnant because they used NO birth control.

http://www.theage.com.au/national/re...0118-7jz6.html
http://women.webmd.com/tc/abortion-r...hoose-abortion

Neither of these articles here point out that a severe lack of birth control is the most common reason. Specifically, the WebMD article points out the following:

The most common reasons women consider abortion are:

Birth control (contraceptive) failure. Over half of all women who have an abortion used a contraceptive method during the month they became pregnant.

Excuse me, but I do take precautions. I'm on the pill and my boyf always uses a condom. Why the fuck should I be punished when I have done my utmost to not get pregnant? Also, I would not make a good mother; and I have suffered from depression in the past. This may sound selfish, but I have worked hard to get my body the way it is and I really don't want it ruined by carrying a parasite for nine months just cuz some bleeding heart wants to control what I do with my body.

I'm in the same camp as you Lace, along with the "when I can financially support a child" group. I do want kids, but further down the track, when my depression and anxiety are better managed than they are now.

I hate to run the risk of derailing my own thread, but did he follow all of the doctor's directions properly? Reason I ask is because a man is not sterile immediately after a vasectomy. It takes a couple of months for all the excess sperm to get flushed from his body. That's why urologists have them come back for follow-up semen tests afterward. Most of them encourage their patients to wait until they have given two sperm-free semen tests before it's okay to proceed without other forms of contraception.

I remember reading an article stating that men are getting younger and younger when it comes to vasectomies. The warnings given were:

-Your first few post-op ejaculations will have blood in them.
-It takes about 12-14 ejaculations total to clear out the sperm roughly.

[Nyoibo]

-It takes about 12-14 ejaculations total to clear out the sperm roughly.

So the average young guy would be clear in a couple of days?

[Lace Neil Singer]

XD

That's a bit sexist, tho. How come doctors are falling over themselves to give young men sterilisations, but won't do the same by women? I just hate being given a patronising, "But you might change your mind later on." Look, I was told when I was eighteen that when I hit thirty, my biological clock would start clanging like the "we're all going to die" bell on the Titanic. Guess what, that hasn't happened. So why can't I be sterilised?