People with outdoor cats should have their pets taken away

[Lace Neil Singer]

The local cats are all fixed, vaccinated, have tick/flea repellant, checked frequently, and are not allowed outside before dawn or after dusk.

Same here. My old cat, which died of renal failure last year, was only injured once during her entire life of thirteen years when she was a kitten and the tomcat over the road attacked her. Said people were slammed by everyone and forced to get their tomcat neutered. My new cat, who lives at my parents' house, is same as the old cat spayed, vaccinated, fleaed, wormed and also microchipped. She only ever stays in the garden; she doesn't go any further than that. The old cat only ever went as far as next door on the left; the right hand people had a dog. Both cats; very distinctive in colouring. The old cat was grey, white and ginger; the new cat is a calico. And nope; not a single complaint about damage. Round my way, it's urban foxes that do the most damage; people are always complaining about them running in front of cars. But then, a witch hunt against urban foxes wouldn't work, would it, cuz there's no owners to penalise.

[Ree]

I was discussing this thread with a good friend who just happens to do feline rescue.

She brought up these points to me as arguments for not allowing cats to roam free.

1) Just because your can't hasn't been killed or maimed doesn't mean it doesn't, won't, can't happen.
2) There is some debate as to how effective the FeLuk vaccine is. Considering it's a 100% death sentence and so easily communicable (sharing food and water dishes for example) is it worth the risk?
3) Other diseases like FIV there are no vaccines for.
4) I live in a city of 500,000 people. Animal control puts down between 200 & 500 cats and kittens 2-3 times per week. If an animal is not claimed within 3 days (72 hours) and not taken by a local shelter (that are all full up), it's destroyed.
5) One un-spayed female can be responsible for 42,000 offspring in 5 years *http://www.animalcrusaders.ca/pet-care/
6) of the 9 cats that live full-time in my house who were ALL outdoor cats. Only one tries to get out. And he just happens to be a jerk.

I am pretty confident that my friend knows what she's talking about.

[elsporko]

Unfortunately facts from experts aren't valued as highly as eye witness accounts like "The 20 seconds I saw my cat outside before it was out of my line of site I didn't see it do anything bad so that means it never does anything bad."

I'm still not seeing any arguments as to why the wants of cat owners trump the rights of property owners other then people saying everybody loves their cats, which I highly doubt. Unless you personally ask everybody who lives in a several mile radius then your only basing this on the fact that people probably don't know who the annoying cat belongs to.

[Fashion Lad!]

Unfortunately facts from experts aren't valued as highly as eye witness accounts like "The 20 seconds I saw my cat outside before it was out of my line of site I didn't see it do anything bad so that means it never does anything bad."

I'm still not seeing any arguments as to why the wants of cat owners trump the rights of property owners other then people saying everybody loves their cats, which I highly doubt. Unless you personally ask everybody who lives in a several mile radius then your only basing this on the fact that people probably don't know who the annoying cat belongs to.

I think you like taking arguments to absolutes and then you act bewildered how anyone can be so wrong. You also seemed to be confused on the difference between a feral cat and my little meow mix junkies. Of course a feral cat is going to prey heavily on wildlife because that's all they have. It'd be like if someone abandoned their dog or a wild dog. They also go prey on wildlife. It's all they have and they have to eat.

You seem to also forget that even while they are our pets, their first instinct is centuries old. It's ingrained in them. It will not go away. Oh, and when I gave the example of my 3 cats when I was a kid, our neighbors *LOVED* them. One neighbor would feed my cat walleye that he caught. Several others would say they just loved how they could watch our cats catch bats that were flying in the air.

If anyone, and I do mean anyone suggests that I don't or didn't love my cats because I let them outside really needs to re-evaluate that argument. I love and loved my cats. I guarantee that if anyone took one my cats based on the argument that I didn't love them because I let them outside, they'd meet my fist in a rather unpleasant way. My cats are like family. You don't get to judge *everyone* based on an argument that relies heavily on the study of feral cats just because you want cat *owners* to re-evaluate how they care for their pets.

Cats can be pets and cats can be feral. They cannot be feral pet cats.

[Cats]

I was discussing this thread with a good friend who just happens to do feline rescue.

She brought up these points to me as arguments for not allowing cats to roam free.

1) Just because your can't hasn't been killed or maimed doesn't mean it doesn't, won't, can't happen.
2) There is some debate as to how effective the FeLuk vaccine is. Considering it's a 100% death sentence and so easily communicable (sharing food and water dishes for example) is it worth the risk?
3) Other diseases like FIV there are no vaccines for.
4) I live in a city of 500,000 people. Animal control puts down between 200 & 500 cats and kittens 2-3 times per week. If an animal is not claimed within 3 days (72 hours) and not taken by a local shelter (that are all full up), it's destroyed.
5) One un-spayed female can be responsible for 42,000 offspring in 5 years *http://www.animalcrusaders.ca/pet-care/
6) of the 9 cats that live full-time in my house who were ALL outdoor cats. Only one tries to get out. And he just happens to be a jerk.

I am pretty confident that my friend knows what she's talking about.

While I do understand exactly what you/your friend mean, but to flip the coin, the same could be said about human beings, but that doesn't stop us from going outside and interacting with others and engaging in sexual intercourse, all of which expose us to disease and can add to the population (though I admit cats breed much faster than humans, but that is why we get them fixed). We take precausions to help prevent it, true, but it doesn't make invulnerable or keep us from going about our daily lives.

I mean, just because I haven't been hit by a car and injured/killed in a crosswalk, doesn't mean it can't or won't happen. There's actually a much higher chance of THAT happening than my cats getting run over or serverly hurt or killed outside. But yet, that doesn't stop me from walking places and using crosswalks when I have the right of way. Yes, there is a chance my cat may get hurt/sick outside (hell, it can happen inside too). But the same goes for me as well. Life in general has risks and consequences, and the best we can do is to minimize those risks while still satisfying our needs. It's a game of balance, and while we all don't agree on everything, as long as the subject in question is happy and healthy regardless, I personally don't see a problem.

I'm still not seeing any arguments as to why the wants of cat owners trump the rights of property owners other then people saying everybody loves their cats, which I highly doubt. Unless you personally ask everybody who lives in a several mile radius then your only basing this on the fact that people probably don't know who the annoying cat belongs to.

No one has said the rights of their cat trump property rights. We're saying that if the neighbors do not mind in the slightest, then there isn't a problem. If permission is granted, then rights are not being violated. In fact, that's how laws and rules are supposed to work. If you're allowed to do something (or your cat is), and you do it, there's no problem whatsoever. If you're not allowed and do it, THEN there is a problem. But I've said several times that the neighbors don't mind at all if the cats go in their yard. Our yard is open up to the neighbors cats as well. In 20 years, I don't think I've ever heard of a single complaint about someone's pet roaming in a yard. Considering there is always at least 3+ cats at any given time throughout that period, along with a handful of dogs (who occasionally get loose on accident), that's a pretty damn good track record.

I don't see why I need to ask people in a several mile radius. My cats never go more than 30 yards from the house (and YES, I WATCH THEM). That only covers 2-3 of my neighbors, none of which who mind (are you getting that part yet? That the neighbors don't mind and permission has been granted?)

Some people don't want cats in their yard, and a good pet owner will respect that. But I don't HAVE that problem in my immediate neighborhood. Everyone knows which cat belongs to whom, so if there ever IS a problem (which there never has been), everyone knows who owns it. Not everyone around hates cats. Some people do, but the people around here who live in the radius of my cat's wandering areas DO NOT. They all know which cat belongs to what family. And if you don't believe me, then I dare you to come to my neighborhood and ask them all yourself, and then if you're still not satisfied with that, then take my pets away (nevermind that I could sue you for it, since animal control nor any vets has no complaints on them and legally you would have no bearing), and take care of them yourself.

[Lace Neil Singer]

I know full well that my cat doesn't go far; it's called ASKING THE NEIGHBOURS. My parents TALK to their neighbours and everyone in the little cul-de-sac where they live. Only the neighbours already mentioned ever saw the old cat; and no-one sees the new cat. She sticks to the garden cuz she was abused by her old owners and she's a bit nervous. She might decide to go further if she ever gets over that, but since she's a queen, it's unlikely she'll go any further than the neighbours on that side.

The people on the other side don't like cats, but seeing as they own a big slobbery dog, I really doubt that any cat worth its salt is going to venture there. Once again I will point out the fact that since the old cat and new cat were coloured pretty distinctively, everyone knew who they belonged to. Only problem we had with the old cat was her begging for food at the neighbour's house; we put a stop to that by asking them not to feed her cuz she was getting four meals a day instead of two. Never did they complain about damage done. Yeah, their bin got knocked over a couple of times, but it wasn't our cat. How so? Well, firstly a wheely bin is a bit big for a cat to knock over, even a small one as they had; and second, they saw the foxes attack it the second time. After that, they put stones at the bottom to stop them.

[Amanita]

The cat that "I don't care about" and "Can't be bothered with" is curled up happily on my bed at the moment, not more than six feet away from me. He's been there most of the day, the little rascal Yes, he gets an hour or two of outdoor time each day, when the weather is good. He only gets outdoor time during daylight, never at night. No, we have not had any complaints from the neighbors (who we know) about any bad behavior on his part. I'm sure that if he were causing trouble, somebody would have told us by now, considering we've had him for 9 freaking years already, and this is another neighborhood where people have a pretty good idea of what animal belongs to which house. If anything, I've seen dogs on the loose do much more damage in regards to property and trashbags. That and wild raccoons, which my dad has trapped several of. (humane traps- we practice catch and release).

[Boozy]

My mother's garden has been dug up and shat in by her neighbour's cat.

The finches she enjoys watching in her backyard have been killed by another neighbour's (well-fed) cat.

My father has lost about five chickens in the last year to his neighbour's (again, well-fed) cats.

My neighbour's cat has destroyed the screen on my ground level window.

If I let my dogs get away with that kind of shit, my neighbours would have called animal control ages ago. And they would have been well within their rights to do so.

[elsporko]

That couldn't have been cats Boozy. Apparently all cats that run wild never cause any damage and are beloved by all who see them, and instantly know who the owner of the cat is because apparently everybody knows who all cats belong to. Must have to do with loving the cats so much.


And feral cats and house cats are the same thing when they are outside unsupervised. They behave the same way, cause the same destruction, and most feral cats were either house cats that never went home or the litter of house cats.

[Wingates_Hellsing]

My mother's garden has been dug up and shat in by her neighbour's cat.

The finches she enjoys watching in her backyard have been killed by another neighbour's (well-fed) cat.

My father has lost about five chickens in the last year to his neighbour's (again, well-fed) cats.

My neighbour's cat has destroyed the screen on my ground level window.

If I let my dogs get away with that kind of shit, my neighbours would have called animal control ages ago. And they would have been well within their rights to do so.

Did you call animal control on them?

[Amanita]

That couldn't have been cats Boozy. Apparently all cats that run wild never cause any damage and are beloved by all who see them, and instantly know who the owner of the cat is because apparently everybody knows who all cats belong to. Must have to do with loving the cats so much.

I can't speak for the others, but I was describing circumstances in OUR neighborhood, not everyone's. In our area, many of us know each other, and have known each other for a long time. So we know each other's pets too. Nowhere did I say that this was true in all neighborhoods- goddess knows that there are plenty of places where the neighbors all keep to themselves and don't have that relationship.

I can't speak for everyone here, but my (fixed) tomcat only gets a couple of hours outside, max. And then he WANTS back in- he gets rewarded in kitty treats for coming back inside in timely fashion, so he has incentive to stay close to home. IMHO, there's a difference between being let out for a short period of time, and being out unsupervised all day long.

ElSporko, I've been trying to be civil here. But reading your posts here and in many other topics, I've noticed a real trend of sarcasm, snarkiness, and hyperbole that IMHO, damages whatever points you're trying to make. When the snark begins to overwhelm the message, perhaps it's time to tone it down.

Boozy, if you and your parent's neighbors know which cats are doing this, have you called animal control, or talked to the neighbors whose cats are doing this? If the neighbors don't know what's happening, they can't move to fix it. And if they do know, but don't care, then perhaps it's time for some outside help.

[HYHYBT]

My mother's garden has been dug up and shat in by her neighbour's cat.

The finches she enjoys watching in her backyard have been killed by another neighbour's (well-fed) cat.

My father has lost about five chickens in the last year to his neighbour's (again, well-fed) cats.

My neighbour's cat has destroyed the screen on my ground level window.

If, when you told your neighbors about this, they did nothing, then they are indeed bad neighbors and irresponsible pet owners.

That couldn't have been cats Boozy. Apparently all cats that run wild never cause any damage and are beloved by all who see them, and instantly know who the owner of the cat is because apparently everybody knows who all cats belong to. Must have to do with loving the cats so much.

NOBODY in this thread has made those claims except you.

And feral cats and house cats are the same thing when they are outside unsupervised. They behave the same way, cause the same destruction, and most feral cats were either house cats that never went home or the litter of house cats.

Feral cats generally are descendants of pets that have been abandoned. Try interacting with them sometime; they behave differently from both cared-for pets and strays that used to belong to someone. Unfortunately, entirely too many people see pets as disposable, and dump them somewhere when they tire of them, or can't keep them anymore, or move away. Some even leave them trapped in their old now-vacant home.

[Fashion Lad!]

I don't think anyone claimed that their animal was absolutely always perfect. (If you're going to point out other people's posts, make sure they're using an absolute like how I did). And I'm sure that anyone would admit that their cat has problem done some things that people would frown upon, even while being outside and supervised. Because, let's face it, unless you're staring at your cat 100% of the time, they're quick enough to do something they shouldn't be doing. They're quick enough to kill another animal or dig up a garden.

I did mention that my neighbors liked the fact that my three cats played pest control on the block. I lived in a really small neighborhood. I don't think that anyone even really had a garden in my neighborhood. If they did have a garden, I didn't see it or I don't remember it. And as I've said before, I know my cats killed other critters, at the same time a large majority of those critters were considered pests. My cats were well cared for and well fed. But they still did what thousands of years of existence tells them to do.

[Boozy]

Whether or not I called animal control is almost beside the point. The point is that well-fed housecats can cause a great deal of damage unsupervised.

As it would happen, my mom did talk to her neighbour. But she had to lose several expensive plants first. I also talked to my neighbour about my destroyed window screen, but I had to lose the screen first.

It's just amazing to me that either of us had to tell someone not to leave their unsupervised and unpenned animals roaming around the neighbourhood. How is this not common sense? Why did they wait until their animals pissed someone off to start behaving responsibly?

[Ree]

My Mom feeds her cats quite well, but she lives in the country and lets them roam outside.

I can't count the number of times she has told me they brought little "presents" to her doorstep, or even in the house, in the form of dead birds and chipmunks and other various defenseless wildlife.

Yeah, it's great that they keep the rodents and destructive little buggers in check, but it irks me that the beautiful little birds have to suffer in there.

There are a lot of fishers in my Mom's area, and I worry that the cats will get killed.

While I do understand exactly what you/your friend mean, but to flip the coin, the same could be said about human beings

Good grief...yet another irrelevant reversal of the situation to compare it with human behaviour.

Pssst....here's a secret...cats are NOT humans, so putting that mindset to it is rather ridiculous.

Yeah, humans have accidents and get hurt too, but for the most part, a human has much better reasoning skills and thought processes to know when a situation is dangerous.

Humans are larger and more readily seen than a small cat weighing only a few pounds.

Cats have a lot more natural predators in a normal outdoor environment than humans do.

While I don't agree with the reasoning that people who let their cats roam don't love their pets or deserve to have them taken away, I still don't feel personally that I am a responsible pet owner if I let my cat loose outside.

I know the statistics and I have seen the results of cats roaming free, and I personally do not want that for my cat.

I can present the facts to others and alert them to the problems and risks of allowing their cats to roam, but I will not condemn them if they choose to ignore those facts.

All I can hope is that their kitties continue to stay safe.

I do know I am sick and tired of cats roaming all over my neighbourhood unchecked while dogs are snatched up immediately by animal control and hauled away. The bylaws even specifically mention dogs but say nothing about cats.