Anti-union people piss me off sometimes...

[Dreamstalker]

The former-BF (the guy in Nowhere, TX who refuses to get his shit together, once tried to blame me for his loss of a job) is now trying to convince me that unions are Teh Ebil. His belief is that "unions exist just to line the pockets of their CEOs" (...do unions have CEOs?!), and the like. He says that unions are why the US auto industry is in bad shape (um...I don't think so).

More fuel was thrown on the fire when he got wind of the WGA strike. I attempted to explain it in simple terms, think the phrasing I used was book authors only being paid for the first hardback printing (he doesn't read so maybe that went over his head). There was a meet-and-greet at the bookstore following a big WGA rally on Friday, I made the mistake of mentioning that (interestingly, there's an anonymous post on the store's livejournal jibing with his point of view...hmmmm).

I'm pro-union. My great-grandfather helped found a coalminers union in PA. Were it not for unions, there would be assorted badness (one of the things I mentioned to him was the Triangle fire, at which he said I was just making things up).

As he says, "the only good unionist is a wal-mart unionist". Grrrr.

This seems to be a fairly stellar example of someone who is against something based on false information, and refuses to actually research (or shut up and listen to the points I'm trying to make).

[AFPheonix]

Your boyfriend is a total winner. However, I will agree with him that some of the large unions are pretty corrupt these days. US car companies are in trouble in part because of the huge portion of their budget that is going to their pensioners. It is also in part to poor management, poor R&D, and poor projection, but some of their inability to be innovative is due to the money that they'd be able to spend on R&D is going to pensioners.

I know that the union affiliated with Kroger these days is VERY corrupt, and is in bed with Kroger corporate. Together they fucked over the workers at Freddie's when my husband worked there.

[Dreamstalker]

Hence why he is now the ex until he can get his act together, then we shall see what happens...methinks he's just bitter because he threw away an almost free ride at college and is trying to make me miserable too.

Yup, some unions are bad. When they work, they work well, but when they don't....oy.

While I agree that unions may have something to do with the automakers' problems, it's not quite to the level he makes it to be (one memorable quote is: "Companies don't want to pay someone $40 an hour for sitting on their ass and working a screwgun"...which is true, but he says that in a way that implies that nothing else could possibly be a factor).

In a way I see his underlying points (although not in the way he does, obviously)...intelligent debate is pointless with him and I stopped trying awhile ago. His former employer was a non-union shop, and that did have its problems (rampant OSHA violations, et al).

[Boozy]

A lot of people seem to be throwing the baby out with the bathwater when it comes to unions these days.

Bad unions are terrible, but in many cases (such as Wal-Mart), no union is also a terrible thing.

I compare it to people saying, "Politicians are greedy and corrupt. Its rare to find a good politician. The country would be better off without them." Logically, we know this proposed solution is unworkable. Politicians are necessary for democracy to function. The solution is to revamp the system, not toss it out altogether and live in anarchy.

Likewise, unions are necessary in our post-modern capitalist system. When problems inevitably arise, they need to be solved without tossing out the whole idea.

Coal miner's unions are a terrific example of how necessary unions can be, and how much good they can do for workers and their communities.

[Seshat]

Until or unless corporate law changes to make corporations answer to all stakeholders (customers, staff and suppliers, not just shareholders), unions will be necessary.

Even when corporations are required to answer to all stakeholders, some sort of watchdog will be needed.

People have a tendancy to look out for their own interests, it's just human. So sometimes we need checks and balances.

[MystyGlyttyr]

I say the same thing about unions that I do about the feminist movement and the civil rights movement. It had a time and place when they were completely necessary, but now that they've acheived what they set out to do, they shouldn't need to still exist.

However, there are always going to be trogladytes who are either inherently greedy and corrupt or clinging to the beliefs of a time they never even lived in that prevent the movements from being able to fade into the past where they should properly belong. And further, the tools that were once almost a universal good have been taken and corrupted by the always-present bad apples so that now the movements themselves are villianized by the unaware public.

(I'm not anti-feminist, I'm not anti-civil rights and I'm not anti-union. I'm just anti-the fact that humanity as a whole is still so jacked that it's still necessary for these things to exist in any way, shape or form.)

[protege]

Locally, the word "union" still has a dirty meaning....mainly because of what happened to the steel industry. For years, Pittsburgh more-or-less dominated the steel market. During that time, their workers were making bucketloads of cash--the union was powerful then. However, it wasn't to last--by the 1970s, much of the area was declining.

Imported steel from Japan and other places was taking over. Those companies weren't subject to union wages, and could sell it for much less. Eventually, the constant strikes, along with the high wages, forced the closing of most of the mills, and killed off many of the towns here, and drove roughly a million people out of the area. Take McKeesport, PA, for example. That was booming years ago. Now, it's largely a ghost town

What pisses me off about unions, is that many times, they only look out for their leadership. From what I've read, is that whenever a mill went under, the union people simply crawled away, and left their members to fend for themselves.

Speaking of the coal unions, the story of Jock Yablonski is an interesting read. For those who don't know, he, along with his family, was murdered in 1969 while running for union President. At the time, he wanted to clean up the corruption, which, unfortunately, led to his demise.

[CancelMyService]

I always ask if unions are so TEH EVIL, why do big companies spend millions on anti-union brainwashing and places like Wal-Mart shit their pants over the mere mention of the word?

Too many people take things for granted that only exist because unions fought for them. Like 40 hour work weeks? Paid vacations? Paid Overtime? Labor laws? Health care provided by your job? Think any of those would exist if unions didn't stand up and fight for them? It amazes me that so many think people have those benefits out of the goodness of corporate hearts.

Speaking of steel unions, when the owner of the mill my dad worked for raided the pension fund and ran, it was the union that tracked his ass down and got as much money back as they could. My mom gets his pension now, $121 a month for the 36 mother-effing years he worked for the company. If it wasn't for the union, he wouldn't have got jackshit. Every so often they find more money the owner squirreled away and give the guys an extra check.

Mysty's right, unions shouldn't still have to exist in 2008, but until companies all treat their workers like human beings rather than cattle, unions are still going to have their place in the world.

[protege]

I forgot to mention that I lost a job because of a union. In fact, Pittsburgh lost its other major newspaper because of it. Right around 1993, the Teamsters, who represented the delivery drivers, decided that $70,000 wasn't enough for them. Keep in mind that all those fools did was drive a truck. They didn't load the truck, nor did they unload them. Even so, they wanted more, including the carriers jobs as well. I don't know about all the carriers, but I always did a good job on my route, even though the pay sucked. My customers could count on the paper being inside the door...not a sogging baggie tossed on their driveway, or in their trees, shrubs, etc.

I won't deny that unions fought for things we take for granted, but I think their time is over.

[rahmota]

Well I dont think the time for unions is over. if anythign I think we need more collective barganing in place. I mean yeah when they go bad they get really bad. That can eb said about a lot of things though too. Look at a cop when he goes bad or a corrupt politician or whatever.

But when unions work they protect the employees, act as a check and balance against corporate greed and without unions yeah a lot more problems would be around. Yeah it sucks that unions and other watchdog groups have to exist in the modern world but for as long as greed is the sole motivator for companies and they treat their employees like chattel or slaves then they have to exist though.

I'm definately pro union. My dad worked a union shop for most of his life. Those where the best years of his employment career. Through issue not related to the union the plant closed down (The leadership sold out to a bigger company that closed the doors for a tax write off) and he wound up workign in a small non-union shop that would layoff people, hire them back lay off hireback rinse repeat. Until he got tired of that and wound up in another plant that was also non-union and forced him to work a foot trip machine knowing he had arthritis of the hips. He wound up on disability with blown hips because of that and the company tried to say he didnt want to work it because he was lazy (Yes they actually said that in open court when dad sued them). I'll stop now before I go completely off the deep end as I am still bitter and angry with those bstrds as my father was never lazy in his life.

I am a member of several co-operatives in the county for farmers. I definately feel that without collective barganing we would be railroaded and shafted a lot more than what we are.

Unions and colelctive barganing will always have a place as long as corporate culture is what it is today.

And Dreamstalker: Your ex is a moron and sounds like his reality check bounced.

[Boozy]

Anti-union people are often guilty of using "proofs" such as "Well, my uncle lost his job because of a union" or "My neighbour was a union-member for years, and he was corrupt".

I believe them, but anecdotal stories are useless as an argument. What happens to one person may not happen to others. The union movement's track record needs to be looked at objectively and on a larger scale.

[Dreamstalker]

I always ask if unions are so TEH EVIL, why do big companies spend millions on anti-union brainwashing and places like Wal-Mart shit their pants over the mere mention of the word?

I never really understood the WM anti-union bias...oh that's right, a union would mean they wouldn't be able to treat their workers like crap.

If it wasn't for the union, he wouldn't have got jackshit. Every so often they find more money the owner squirreled away and give the guys an extra check.

When my grandfather died, the pension board didn't want to dole out his pension to my grandmother. A union leaned on them and got things done.

Mysty's right, unions shouldn't still have to exist in 2008, but until companies all treat their workers like human beings rather than cattle, unions are still going to have their place in the world.

Exactly.

And Dreamstalker: Your ex is a moron and sounds like his reality check bounced.

Oh HELL yeah. Every so often he sez to me "You need to face reality here" (not only about unions but everything else under the sun including his own seriously warped political views)...hello McFly, you're the one who has your head in the sand about any- and everything!

[AFPheonix]

Why are you even talking to this guy still? My god, it would take everything in my power to not slap his stupid mouth into the back of his head.

[rahmota]

Dreamstalker: AFPO is right why are you still even talking to this dimwit. I had a friend who was similar to that and notice the tense I used. We havent even ackowledged each others existence in 4 years now.


Sorry if it comes across judgemental or something but life throws enough BS on ya why help it along.