Do employees have a right to a living wage?

[Crazedclerkthe2nd]

There's a theory out there that every single person who works a full time job (which I would classify as 36 hours a week or more) has a right to be paid at a level that allows the employee to be able to afford food, shelter and a few other necessities on a very limited budget.

The minimum wage in most states in the U.S. is around $7/hour. Many of us know from personal experience or the experiences of those we are close with that in most areas of the country it is next to impossible for someone working full time at minimum wage to make ends meet.

This is where people get divided.

You have one group that says the minimum wage needs to be raised to better match the cost of living for employees. Sounds good, but then businesses respond by saying a higher minimum wage will increase expenses, increase prices and cut into their bottom line (profits) and oppose such a move.

Then you have another group of people who feel that a minimum wage equal to the cost of living is an affront to everyone who has worked their butt off to move up from a minimum wage job to a better paying position that allows them to live comfortably. They believe your style of living should be earned, not just given to you because the government deems it necessary.

Why do people work minimum wage jobs? In some cases it's because they lack the education to qualify for anything better (for example someone without a high school diploma has extremely limited job prospects), in other cases it could be because they don't really aspire to do anything else. I'm sure most of us have met people at jobs we've worked at that have been there forever, earning peanuts the majority of that time and seem to have no problem with it whatsoever. A person could also be stuck in a minimum wage job because they have behavioral issues or other problems preventing them from achieving more gainful employment.

The minimum wage debate has become even more relevant in the current recession. The fact is there are people with a Masters Degree working minimum wage jobs now because it's the only work they can find. The economy is still fragile and any minimum wage increase would hit businesses harder than in more prosperous times. As we all know, with no businesses there are no jobs.

But let's lay out that first question again: Does a person have a right to earn a living wage or do they only have the right to seek a job and work their way up until they can afford a comfortable standard of living?

[Hobbs]

"We hold these truths to be self-evident that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights. Among these rights are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, Men have instituted governments among them..."

The Declaration would argue that life is an unalienable right. To be able to live then, is an essential and fundamental right of a person. And that a government owes it to its people to secure the ability for its citizens to live.

PS: I quoted from memory, so forgive me if it's wrong.

[muses_nightmare]

I think that people should be paid a living wage. I'm in BC, and we have the lowest minimum wage of all of the Provinces, $8/h, people have been wanting it to go up to $10/h for a long time now, and nothing has happened. I've read some articles stating that most businesses pay over minimum wage anyway, but the vast majority start out at $8.50, not much above, and certainly not a living wage.

I think it's stupid for people to complain about how they worked up to higher wages, especially if they've been in the workforce for a long time, the cost of living has gone up, therefore wages should go up. I've seen it the other way too, where people who have been with a company for a long time want the minimum wage to go up. For example at my last job I started at $9.35, and even with two raises (though our union contract), people that had been working there for 9 -10 years were either just at $10/h or still under. It's ridiculous.

[Plaidman]

life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, Men have instituted governments [/B]among them..."

The Declaration would argue that life is an unalienable right. To be able to live then, is an essential and fundamental right of a person. And that a government owes it to its people to secure the ability for its citizens to live.

PS: I quoted from memory, so forgive me if it's wrong.

Everyone has the right to live sure. Everybody gets liberty, the whole point of being free willed, which also means people should have the right to suicide.

Its the pursuit of happiness. That is not a right. You are NOT given Happiness. That is something that is not given. You have the right to PURSUIT it though. You want to be rich? Work hard, rob a bank and don't get caught, whatever. As long as you don't enfringe on other people's rights.

That being said, I'm barely above minimal wage. Oregon is 8.40 right now. I make under a dollar more. I'm barely making rent with that, and I eat more ramen then anything else, and veggies from my garden. With my hours completly cut, I been going on my 100+ hours of saved up vacation time which thankfully just incure, and not use it or lose it, and my also several days of sick time. But that won't last.

Oregon is very very very giving on food stamps. Well, except to me. I was homeless living on the streets, and was refused because the guy thought I was lying to take advantage. I thought the smell of me, the dirt, and the ragged clothes was a giveaway, but whatever, that was a few years ago before I got a job and made up with family. I'm sure if I try now, I'll get a couple hundred. I mean, I've seen the balances on my customers who use it to load up on junk food, and the bulk of them number in the hundreds. Thus is what the goverment help is for, aka welfare.

As much as I hate to say it, I think how it works now is usuable at times.
But it totally requires a budget. And don't blow life savings on a girl that loves ya.

[muses_nightmare]

See I think that minimum wages don't ensure happiness, just the ability to have a roof over your head and food in your mouth.

Maybe I'm just bitter because the wage in BC hasn't changed in 8 years. We have one of the highest living costs while having the lowest wages, and we are taxed to death. I'm really not impressed with our current government.

The thing that annoys me the most when people argue against minimum wage increases is when they tell people to "just go out and get a degree". Like it's not insanely expensive to do so. Sorry, but education costs are high, and oftentimes student loans doesn't even cover it. I'm currently in school for graphic design, which while it is one of the pricier educations to get I think is overpriced, for an 18 month course I'm paying $34000, and that was the cheapest without forgoing quality. and besides, sometimes even a degree couldn't help someone find a high paying job.

[Plaidman]

Yeah. Nothing in life insures happiness. Your only right is to pursuit happiness. When means you have to try to get it. Its not the goverment's job to give you happiness.

[Wingates_Hellsing]

Yeah. Nothing in life insures happiness. Your only right is to pursuit happiness. When means you have to try to get it. Its not the goverment's job to give you happiness.

Perhaps not, but it is their job to at least try and prevent you from getting buried in a life of non-stop subsistence labor without any hope of improving your situation. They're not responsible for buying you a TV, but they are responsible for keeping you from being little more than a slave.

[muses_nightmare]

Yeah. Nothing in life insures happiness. Your only right is to pursuit happiness. When means you have to try to get it. Its not the goverment's job to give you happiness.

I think you misunderstood me. I meant that a higher minimum wage isn't to ensure happiness, it's to make it so people can just get by. The current minimum wage in a lot of places doesn't even ensure that. You can't even begin to pursue happiness if you don't have the time to because you're working 3 jobs to feed your family. You may not need all the fancy gadgets and that, but food and shelter should be within a working person's reach.

[elsporko]

Raising minimum wage won't change anything. Everything else will end up costing more and companies will not be able to hire as many workers.

The fact is if you have a full time job at minimum wage then there is no reason you shouldn't be able to survive. Most people just have no idea how to shop on a budget. Most of the people who want minimum wage to go up because its unlivable don't realize that cigarettes, alcohol, and dogfood aren't necessities of life nor do you have to eat fast food four days a week.

[Hobbs]

I think you misunderstood me. I meant that a higher minimum wage isn't to ensure happiness, it's to make it so people can just get by. The current minimum wage in a lot of places doesn't even ensure that. You can't even begin to pursue happiness if you don't have the time to because you're working 3 jobs to feed your family. You may not need all the fancy gadgets and that, but food and shelter should be within a working person's reach.

Yes, I think you misunderstood me as well. I meant that since it's a living wage, and people are ensured LIFE as one of the basic rights, that it should be used.

[blas87]

All I know is, I don't believe it's right to cut wages or "max out" people's pay or benefits.

Upon hearing of my merit increase (yay!), I discovered that at my job, there is a rate in which an employee maxes out on their hourly rate. So after that, you'll never get a raise again as long as you work there.

[protege]

Raising minimum wage won't change anything. Everything else will end up costing more and companies will not be able to hire as many workers.

That usually is what happens. The company won't take a hit--instead, they'll take the wage increases, and pass it along to consumers as higher prices. If they don't do that, they'll start laying people off...meaning the employees left will be forced to do more.

We're actually going through this where I work now. My boss is annoyingly cheap with raises, or even hiring more people. If he hires anyone, it's usually an intern (part-time) so he doesn't have to pay benefits, and can legally cap their hours at less than 40. It sucks, but it is within the law. The reason it sucks, is that they usually don't stick around very long. No sooner do we get someone fully trained, and it's time for them to return to school, or they get another job.

Also sucky, is that I have had my wages frozen. First time was shortly after I started working my current job at the brokerage. (For those who don't know, our office is sort of a "franchise." Boss actually owns the office, we handle the day-to-day stuff, but the trading system, reporting, HR, etc. is handled by another company. My boss is my boss, but my paychecks come from the larger company. With me so far?)

Towards the end of 1999, my boss decided that the company's arrangement was "too expensive," and he decided to run everything through another firm by the name of Guildford. These assholes, were annoyingly cheap. They decided to set us all up as "independent consultants," so they wouldn't have to pay us benefits, and could *technically* keep our hours less than full-time. At least on paper. I forgot how, but there was a loophole that allowed them to do that.

During that time, about half the people in my office quit As if that wasn't enough, several people also quit in the LA office as well. After 2002, my boss had enough of the cheap bastards, and switched our main company to who we were with before.

Things were fine until about 2006 or so. About that time, the market started adjusting itself, and we got to hear how "we're not making any money." Boss actually said that the company was losing money, and that raises and bonuses weren't happening. Of course this is the same guy who just bought another house, various watercraft, and another sports car

We weren't stupid--we knew what was going on. Boss was somehow getting all this expensive shit, at the expense of his employees. Again, a few people quit. But, the best part of this, is when they both left, we got to hear him bitch about "company loyalty."

Company loyalty, are you fucking kidding me? We bust our asses for the company, and you've managed to screw us over every chance you get? When's the last time *you* took a pay cut, asshole?

Seriously, why is it that management makes all the decisions...yet when costs have to be cut, the employees are the ones who always suffer?

[Crazedclerkthe2nd]

Raising minimum wage won't change anything. Everything else will end up costing more and companies will not be able to hire as many workers.

The fact is if you have a full time job at minimum wage then there is no reason you shouldn't be able to survive. Most people just have no idea how to shop on a budget. Most of the people who want minimum wage to go up because its unlivable don't realize that cigarettes, alcohol, and dogfood aren't necessities of life nor do you have to eat fast food four days a week.

I don't know if it's quite so clear cut, I know quite a few minimum wage earners that are really struggling to get by and they've already cut to the bone on expenses.

[Fashion Lad!]

"We hold these truths to be self-evident that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights. Among these rights are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, Men have instituted governments among them..."

The Declaration would argue that life is an unalienable right. To be able to live then, is an essential and fundamental right of a person. And that a government owes it to its people to secure the ability for its citizens to live.

PS: I quoted from memory, so forgive me if it's wrong.

It doesn't mean that the government needs to provide that for us. It just means that neither the government nor anyone else can interfere with our unalienable rights. And it's the government's job to keep people from interfering with our unalienable rights.

No one is stopping anyone from working two jobs to make ends meet. And when the Declaration of Independence was written, there wasn't a 36 or 40 hour work week.

With that being said, I do agree that employers should have to pay a living wage. At the same time, it can cause economic damage to the entire system because the cost of living will go up to keep up with paying these living wages. But once again, I do agree that people should be paid a living wage.

[Skunkle]

I've had close friends who did not smoke or drink, shopped on a budget, had good credit, had a full-time minimum wage job, and couldn't afford the cheapest apartment. I call your bluff, elsporko. Sorry, but while it may be possible in some places, it isn't in others.