Where it is appropriate to go SC on employees.

[Jack]

I know, I'm just saying you shouldn't assume he got himself attacked by running his mouth about his sexuality.

[smileyeagle1021]

I know, I'm just saying you shouldn't assume he got himself attacked by running his mouth about his sexuality.

I was 12, I didn't even fully understand my sexuality yet.
Also, I don't need to say anything for people to guess my sexuality. They can get that by seeing me hold my fiance's hand, they can get it by looking at how we talk to each other and look at each other while at a restaurant, they can get it by wild guess.
Oh, and since we're on the topic, last year overall number of hate crimes went down despite a huge increase in hate crimes against LGBT (when I find the article again, I can post a link). So, every year it is getting safer to be black/asian/mexican/insert group that has traditionally been a target of racial prejudice here and more dangerous to be gay.

But actually, no you're all fucking right, I am paranoid, I should just forget about an attempt on my life for not being manly enough, I should forget that the cops won't protect me, I should forget that something as simple as holding my fiance's hand is considered perfectly valid reason to have stuff thrown at me from cars. All of that doesn't matter, because obviously I'm just a blind hateful bigot. You know that saying about walk a mile in someone else's shoes? Mine are size 11W TM brand shoes, black with corrective insoles for a collapsed arch. Oh, they also come with the baggage of someone trying to kill you at the age of 12, having 2 separate churches lie to you claiming they can help you before stabbing you in the back (one of which quite publicly), and at least once every month or so having something thrown at you, whilst every day opening the newspaper and seeing yet another piece of anti-gay legislation being pushed in the state legislature, or a letter to the editor complaining that I'm the reason that the country is falling apart, or an op-ed piece about how I'm absolute filth. For added bonus, when a little kid asks his parent why that guy is holding another guy's hand, be used to the parent responding "because they have rejected jesus, they are filthy, that is what will happen to you if you don't say your prayers" (yes, I have heard that).
If you think you can make it a mile in those shoes, let me know.

eta-

You know, if this is what you had suggested to begin with, that would be one thing. This would not be sucky at all. This scenario doesn't having you wishing to ruin the lives of the families of people not involved in the decision making process.

And what about the gay teens who are homeless because their families kicked them out because of groups like this spreading hate?
What about the families destroyed because a homosexual son, daughter, brother, sister, whatever was murdered because of advocacy for violence?
What about the person who is killed?
It's not a question of if people will be hurt because of this group now having the extra money, it's a matter of how bad.
Enough homosexuals' lives have been ruined by hate groups, it's time to say enough is enough and fight back. If a few employees having a stressful day is what it takes to affect Target's bottom line, well I'd call that acceptable collateral damage considering how much damage Target will cause with this donation.
That said, I sure as hell could not sleep at night knowing people would die because of my company's advocacy and would get the fuck out of their as quickly as I could. If these people can know that their company is responsible for advocating murder and sleep at night, well, I have no respect for them anymore anyway. Sucks for them, but as the Christians like to say, this is a war, and in war their are casualties, and it's about fucking time that it's not the homosexual side being the only one suffering casualties.

[Jack]

I doubt I could. I must ask why you continue to live in Utah. It's obviously bad for your emotional health.

[smileyeagle1021]

I continue to live in Utah because I can't afford to move.
ETA- I take that back, I could afford to move, but everywhere I could afford would be just as bad as Utah. I can afford places in Idaho, Wyoming, the plains states (Minnesota being one of them, fancy that), and well, basically, everywhere in the area between the two coasts where bigotry runs rampant.

[Ree]

I must ask why you continue to live in Utah.

I continue to live in Utah because I can't afford to move.
ETA- I take that back, I could afford to move, but everywhere I could afford would be just as bad as Utah. I can afford places in Idaho, Wyoming, the plains states (Minnesota being one of them, fancy that), and well, basically, everywhere in the area between the two coasts where bigotry runs rampant.

Why is it that every time smiley starts a thread about his situation, someone inevitably asks why he's still living in Utah?
Moving is not easy and it's not cheap.

Man it ticks me off when someone makes that kind of suggestion without really thinking of the logistics involved.

I do understand it, and I have wondered that myself, but, seriously, it's not as easy to act it out in reality as it is to type it on a screen.

Anyway...

It's interesting that you advocate being rude to people who are only trying to earn a living.

You're saying that, by continuing to work at this company, they are supporting and advocating hatred against gays?
Well, in the same way that you can't afford to move out of a state you obviously despise, and are very limited in choices to places where you feel that you will continue to be persecuted against, perhaps these people are limited in where they can get a job and put food on the table for their families.

Hate only begets hatred.

I find the attitude to be really sickening that it's OK to make life miserable for the employees because of a dislike for the corporate decision making.

You are pissed at Target for this donation?
Fine.
Boycott Target.
Get your friends to boycott it, and spread the word about what they have done.
Write letters.
Get the information out there in the press.

Maybe if there's a big enough stink, corporate will rethink doing things such as this.

Just don't advocate going in and treating some poor soul like shit just to get your point across, when they're just trying to make a living, the same as you.

*EDIT TO ADD - It really would have been better if you had actually included a link in your OP to back up your claim instead of just making an argument about a subject and leaving everybody else to do the groundwork to supply the details.
Debating works best when a person makes an opening statement that provides evidence of their argument.

[AdminAssistant]

I continue to live in Utah because I can't afford to move.
ETA- I take that back, I could afford to move, but everywhere I could afford would be just as bad as Utah. I can afford places in Idaho, Wyoming, the plains states (Minnesota being one of them, fancy that), and well, basically, everywhere in the area between the two coasts where bigotry runs rampant.

There are many places in Kansas, Missouri, and even dear ol' Arkansas that are very gay friendly. Don't assume that all of us who live between the coasts (even in the Dreaded Hateful South) are all out to beat up some gay people. Hell, Iowa just legalized gay marriage.

As someone else said, you expect Target employees to quit because of a corporate decision, but you won't do something that will inconvenience you, but would greatly greatly improve your quality of life because...????? Smiley, you know I support you and I'm certainly an advocate for gay rights, but you've got a hell of a victim complex going on.

[smileyeagle1021]

but you've got a hell of a victim complex going on.

To use the cliche, it's not really paranoia if they really are out to get you.
I did not imagine being attacked, I do not imagine people throwing stuff at me from their cars, I do not imagine the people going into voting booths to vote away my rights (that last one has very solid voting records to verify), I did not imagine the vandalism to my car, I did not imagine my bishop outing me, I did not imagine the office workers at the United Methodist Church having a conversation about how homosexuality was incompatible with the church and they should have never let them in (this of course after being told I would be accepted by the church and congregation).
Now there are two possibilities, one I am just the least lucky guy on the planet (which being born gay in the United States to a family that lived in one of the less tolerant parts does kind of support that theory), or I really have been the victim of anti-gay bigotry.
Actually, I take that back, I don't know the true definition of bigotry. The people in Uganda, which with support of US Churches passed the gay genocide laws, know bigotry. The people in the Middle East where homosexuals have been executed for centuries now, know bigotry.
What I know is intolerance. That can lead to bigotry, but does not guarantee it.

As to your comment about there being places away from the coast that are accepting (more than just Chicago). I've heard that line before, before moving to Salt Lake I was told the Salt Lake was very open and accepting for an inland city, so forgive me if I take your advice for being open and accepting with a grain of salt. I also find it hard to believe that smaller cities can be open and accepting. I know of only one and that is Reno (which has the 5th worst unemployment in the nation, so definitely not the time to be moving there) and that's mostly because of the massive influx of Bay Area transplants in recent years bringing their ideals with them (quite amazing actually, in less than 20 years Reno went from being a place that minorities walked the streets in fear to being very open and accepting, I've only ONCE had a bad experience in Reno and that was someone muttering under their breath and glaring... that's it.) Last time I checked, Bay Area residents weren't flooding the plains.
And, to confirm my line of thought on that, according to the Travel Industry Association
"Following San Francisco on the list's top 10 were Key West, Fla.; New York City; Fire Island, which is part of Long Island in New York; Provincetown, Mass.; Los Angeles; Miami-South Beach, Fla.; Las Vegas; New Orleans; and Palm Springs-Palm Desert, Calif."
Notice something about that list?

Oh, and Iowa legalized it because of a court decision, not by legislative or popular vote. All that proves is a few judges understand the Constitution, not that the people accept the idea, and if I understand properly, there are already groups working to have the ruling overturned (which California has proven can be done quite easily, so I'll wait until after the referendum to overturn marriage equality before I sing high praises for Iowa.)

[Arcade Man D]

I continue to live in Utah because I can't afford to move.
ETA- I take that back, I could afford to move, but everywhere I could afford would be just as bad as Utah. I can afford places in Idaho, Wyoming, the plains states (Minnesota being one of them, fancy that), and well, basically, everywhere in the area between the two coasts where bigotry runs rampant.

It's also fairly cheap to live in Iowa, which is quite a bit gay-friendly (in that midwest "well, it doesn't affect me, so more power to you" kind of way). And has legalized gay marriage.


And yes, a lot of the actual citizens of Iowa do view the issue like that. Which is why I have high hopes for the referendum turning out the right way there.

[kibbles]

Have you ever been the victim of a crime?

Please do not assume you know anything about me. If I had or if I hadn't has no bearing on what I believe is being sucky for the sake of being sucky. You are basically saying that anyone who is the victim of a crime has the right to take it out on someone who had nothing to do with it.

I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

[smileyeagle1021]

Kibbles, I wouldn't say being the person who earns the money that supports the crime has nothing to do with it.
Besides, was it not established that it is possible to waste their time and make them loose the ability to loose money for the company without being a jackass about it?

How bout for argument, we change the scenario, let's say that Target hadn't donated to a group advocating violence against homosexuals (as it is still considered acceptable in many parts of this country to commit violence against homosexuals), let's say Target donated to, oh let's say the Klu Klux Klan, would you say it is wrong to write, call in, and even go in store to find ways to waste their employees' time and disrupt their business so they can't be making profit? Let's make this even closer to home, let's say that Target donated to a group of militant Atheists who have a mission statement of death to all believers, what would you do then?
Somehow I doubt you would be saying "oh, they have nothing to do with it"

[BlaqueKatt]

How bout for argument, we change the scenario, let's say that Target hadn't donated to a group advocating violence against homosexuals (as it is still considered acceptable in many parts of this country to commit violence against homosexuals), let's say Target donated to, oh let's say the Klu Klux Klan, would you say it is wrong to write, call in, and even go in store to find ways to waste their employees' time and disrupt their business so they can't be making profit? Let's make this even closer to home, let's say that Target donated to a group of militant Atheists who have a mission statement of death to all believers, what would you do then?
Somehow I doubt you would be saying "oh, they have nothing to do with it"

How does donating money to a politcal group that has ties with one person that allegedly* advocates violence against the LGBT community=donating money to fund a hate group?

That is a pretty huge leap there-considering campaign contributions must be used for the campaign and are not-here have some money to give your friends.

That would be the equivalent "logic leap" of saying anyone who donated to my recent charity ride was supporting the KKK.

Money donated to me for the charity(money donated to Minnesota forward), to be given to the charity(to be used for the election campaign)....but oh my ex-husband's father(that's a pretty strong link) was a member of the KKK(canidate Emmer linked to/friends with Bradlee dean). Do you now see how ridiculous your claim of "target supports hate groups" is?

supporting a group that supports someone that is linked to someone that is allegedly anti-LGBT is pretty weak.

pretty close to: oh I heard from sally, who heard from joe, that becky is totally cheating in math class....is it not?



especially as there is this:

Target spokeswoman Lena Michaud says Target does not give funds based on party, but on which candidates and causes "directly effect the company's retail agenda."

She said the company gave $150,000 in cash and in-kind contributions to Minnesota Forward because the group's mission is to elect candidates from both parties who are focused on making "economic growth a priority."

they did not donate directly to Emmer-just to a group that is supporting him, as well as other candidates-Target isn't the only group that funds Minnesota forward-you going to boycott the rest of them as well or just the one? Davisco foods is one of them-any prepared foods(as in you don't make yourself from scratch), that contain milk products-those milk products come from davisco-better check your labels-I know for a fact that any chocolate, nestle, mars, m&m. etc gets whey from davisco-yup even foreign countries-it is an international corporation. And if you really want to do the "guilt by association" Better not watch any Weinstein brothers films-they're co-owners of several things with Hubbard broadcasting which is another supporter of minnesota forward-oh and General Motors as well-no GM products-they own Directtv which merged with USSB another hubbard broadcasting company......I can go on with this until there is nothing left "unsullied" by this horrible guilt-by association....

*and as previously posted

Let me make this perfectly clear -- again. We are opposed to the state, in any country, no matter what its religious tradition, in executing homosexuals. We are against anyone, anywhere, at any time, who executes homosexuals for being homosexual. We would hide them in our homes before we would allow that to happen. But we would preach at them while they were there.

wow that totally advocates killing and violence.....

as does this-

Homosexuals are sinners who, like all sinners, need to be loved and respected as human beings by the church with a view to their redemption and transition -- just as heterosexuals who engage in fornication and adultery need to be admonished because of God’s love and the love he has given us for ourselves and others as sinners in need of a Redeemer

yup just a regular old hate-monger there-anything to back up your claim of "OMG THEY WANT ME DEAD!"....other than Andy Birkey or any article using him as reference? Didn't think so....

oh and:

II take that back, I could afford to move, but everywhere I could afford would be just as bad as Utah. I can afford places in Idaho, Wyoming, the plains states (Minnesota being one of them, fancy that), and well, basically, everywhere in the area between the two coasts where bigotry runs rampant.

really?
according to the advocate-my fair city in Wisconsin*-one of "the plains states where bigotry runs rampant" number 5 of the top gayest cities in the country....as a matter of fact-3 of the top 5 are cities in "plains states" and all "gayer" than San Diego at number 14-hmmm imagine that-sterotypes are wrong...heck the CATHOLIC hospital here offers "domestic partner benefits"-and I've got a 1000 sq foot apt downtown for $800 a month-find that in San Diego...heck I could probably find you and your partner a place to stay with a few phone calls-and jobs-well there are tons of hotels looking for night audit-pay is around $10-$13 per hour based on experience. If you want to think about visiting I can get you in contact with my friend "pup"-he'd be ecstatic to show you around-though he will ramble on about macs and the fact that he is the emcee of pridefest.....
15. Albuquerque, N.M.
14. San Diego
13. Springfield, Mass.
12. Asheville, N.C.
11. Gainesville, Fla.
10. Seattle
9. Austin
8. Portland, Maine
7. Fort Lauderdale, Fla.
6. New Orleans
5. Madison, Wis.
4. Bloomington, Ind.
3. Iowa City
2. Burlington, Vt.
1. Atlanta

*In 2005, Madison was included in Gregory A. Kompes' book, 50 Fabulous Gay-Friendly Places to Live. The Madison Metro area is also credited as the most liberal in the state, and has a higher percentage of gay couples than any other city in the area outside of Chicago and Minneapolis

[kibbles]

No I do not think it is wrong to write or call in, but in the beginning you basically said you were purposely going to be sucky and wouldn't care if they were homeless and living on the street. The comments you made in the beginning are a whole world different than what you now say you would do.

And even if your example was true, it would still be ugly behavior to go in and act like a SC to a person simply earning a living. And before you again assume what I would say, I'd still say that the person on the front line has nothing to do with it. Again, if you were to do as you now say you would I would see no problem. If you were to do what you originally said, yup that's sucky for the sake of being sucky nothing more nothing less.

Please stop assuming what I would or would not say.

[protege]

You are basically saying that anyone who is the victim of a crime has the right to take it out on someone who had nothing to do with it.

Now that's interesting! If he really does think that way...maybe I should (and I'm thinking hypothetically here, folks!) take a bat to the next gay man I see on the street. Why? Because one of them made some sexual comments about me years ago.



Seriously folks, hatred only begets more hatred. As long as alleged victims of past events keep chewing out people who had nothing to do with it, the bashing (of *any* group) will never go away. Do I still hate the guy who made the comments? They're just words...which I've gotten over. Do I hate all gays because of it? Nope. I don't hate them, even if some of them hate every group I belong to. Those who blindly hate...usually aren't that happy to begin with. That is, their hatred has consumed them. The Emperor would be very proud...

[lordlundar]

Why is it that every time smiley starts a thread about his situation, someone inevitably asks why he's still living in Utah?
Moving is not easy and it's not cheap.

Man it ticks me off when someone makes that kind of suggestion without really thinking of the logistics involved.

I do understand it, and I have wondered that myself, but, seriously, it's not as easy to act it out in reality as it is to type it on a screen.

Anyway...

Ree, I can understand your wanting to be level headed in this matter, but in this case, the question as to why smiley doesn't just leave Utah is relevant in the concept of just how absurd his hypocrisy is. All they're asking is what gives him the right to demand people change their lives, regardless of their financial situation, while he has outright refused to do the same, citing financial hardships as the exact reason why he won't.

True, moving is not easy or cheap. It creates a financial hardship. But so does quitting a job to avoid being treated like shit from some asshole who has a wardrum to beat. The main difference with your post and what you quoted is you're trying to make smiley see that he's in the wrong, while what you quoted are simply calling him out on it, most likely because they've tried your approach, failed, and are now just sick of putting up with it.

[blas87]

Actually, being level-headed is the best way to handle this type of situation.

It seems only Ree has even thought of how it would affect smiley, finanically and logistically, to move (let alone to another state!) and find another job. No matter how much he hates Utah, he is not in a position to just up and leave.

Has his hatred consumed him? It seems so. I don't see how making life hell for Target employees will accomplish anything. To me, refusing to shop there and trying to get everyone you know to do the same would be a lot more beneficial.

But it's a bad habbit of a lot of people, both on here and CS, to just leap to "You need to move!" "You need to quit your job!" and I'm glad when someone is able to step in and bring up the point of how a bunch of people online telling you what you need to do doesn't make it any easier or any cheaper, and doesn't solve the problem.